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Suggestion - The Elvish Section http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21998 |
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Author: | Johnny's Fan [ December 16th, 2012, 12:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I agree. It is very hard sometimes to interpret people's meanings on the net but sometimes it is ever so easy... if you are willing to look for it. I've been a part of this merry-go-round for a very long time now, and whilst dreamingfifi has worked over our Elvish section, it has not been without conflict..... on her part especially. She has taken the opportunity to be rude, insulting to our community and also to Arweb whenever she can. She has claimed that her name will not go onto OUR old Elvish pages and that they are garbage.... they may well be garbage but they are AU's garbage. OUR garbage and quite frankly we like them. If Ana is deemed to have been rude (and let's go right back to the beginning and see who had the sttitude first for a fair appraisal), then no one has been listening to what dreamingfifi has been saying or people have been pacifiying her because she is the one who knows what she has been doing. Let's put it this way, Ana has been far more patient and pleasant than I would have been had I trusted myself with replying as often has Ana has been. As fas I am concerned, this should have been stopped ages ago. If enough people say "I want this kept" then the minority voice should have enough respect and humility to accept that as the ruling voice. Instead of complaining that the crusade for perfect Elvish is what this is all about. It's not actually. It's about Arwen-Undomiel.com. What we'd like to see on AU and what visitors like to see. I am so very, very done with this topic. As I know others are as well. I will continue to do my bit around AU, but I cannot in good conscience particpate in this conversation anymore. I am tired of it all, especially as I know what is truly behind all of this. I know that you didn't mean to make it look like you were picking on Ana Ea, perhaps if you had quoted some of dreamingfifi's posts to balance out Ana's comments that would have been a better thing to do. It takes two to have a heated discussion, and more than one person can be seen as "patronizing". I hope that someone else can carry on the discussion regarding the Elvish section, be it about our old pages or the reformation of the new. Because I think personally, it has been unfair that a very small minority have been a part of this most recent discussion. Good luck to you all. EDIT: As I finished posting this, I read your post Ea. Like I said, I know you had no intention of causing any upset. But I am not editing my post, as I feel I have to let people know how I feel. I don't ask that anyone respond to it, as I know you want this thread to carry on discussing things in a calm and appropriate manner. So I will just leave it here so people know why I won't be here anymore and maybe it will be food for thought for all. |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ December 16th, 2012, 12:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I'm just going to ignore the conflict and keep working. If you have suggestions, let me hear them. I'm applying the ones offered already, and you should see them up in a few minutes. |
Author: | Will [ December 16th, 2012, 1:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
Dreamfifi, I think you should take note of the conflict as some comments are addressed to you. I think I can say that the majority of the people would like to see the old lists back. So, as member of the AU revival team, it's your job to listen to what others want. I'm not sure if the old lists are back up. If not, I'm asking you kindly to put the old lists back up, until everyone has agreed on new mutations. |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ December 16th, 2012, 2:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I noticed. I know you pretty much all hate me for not worshipping the old website and being the dictator of the elvish section when you want a democracy. Unfortunately, none of you are Tolkien language experts, so I need final authority on the Elvish. Which means that like it or not, my name is on the Elvish section. If I do a bad job on the translations, it reflects badly on me, not you. I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm working really hard for you right now. I'm tired and don't have much tact in me right now. Forgive me if I end up sounding harsh. Also, I've tried to include you guys in the making of the name lists, for the style and presentation. I've done almost everything that you've asked, and done the best I could to make it how you want it. That's pretty much as close to a democracy as we're going to get here. Maybe I should have just said, "tough luck" and ran away, but forgive me if I want to be helpful. |
Author: | Nurrantiel Mashiara [ December 16th, 2012, 11:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I want to start out by saying that I do appreciate what you have done with the elvish section. I think it's great that we can have a fully updated elvish section. I also appreciate the hard work you have put in with the voice actors as well. Since your intent was to have an updated section, I think it is safe to say you have achieved it. We will be placing the name lists back, as it is a very frequented section. If you would like to continue making a new, more accurate name list, you are more than welcome to. However, if you do so, you will need to contact a coder for putting it up on the site. You may PM one of us if you would like further explanation on that point. AU is, above all things, a fansite. It's a place for fans to come together and enjoy. And in that, not everyone wants to learn IPA or discover all the nuances behind a word. Which is just fine. We're not in the business of regulating how fans can be fans. This is why we still feel strongly about keeping popular pages, even if they aren't as accurate as some may wish. Quote: Unfortunately, none of you are Tolkien language experts, so I need final authority on the Elvish. Which means that like it or not, my name is on the Elvish section. If I do a bad job on the translations, it reflects badly on me, not you. This is something we had yet to get to. If you look at AU as a whole, credit is given on the "credits" page of the site. We can happily place disclaimers on the pages you want nothing to do with, stating that we know they are not linguistically correct, but there will need to be some shifting of how the credits are done. I can assure that everyone you have listed will receive their credit, it will just be done in keeping with the layout of the rest of the site. This is nothing about you, or the section, but merely to keep the site a cohesive whole. I have sent out a few PM's regarding this whole thing over the course of the day, and if anyone wants to talk about it further please do so over PM. |
Author: | Seren [ December 17th, 2012, 5:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I haven't read all of this thread so sorry if this has already been answered. I know the new name lists are still a work in progress but is there going to be a normal pronunciation guide for them as well that really confusing IPA stuff? |
Author: | Anameleth [ December 17th, 2012, 5:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
At the moment, we're just working with IPA, but over time I'm sure we could try and get some pronunciation guides that are easier to understand. I read IPA fairly well now, so if I have the time I could probably work on that after Christmas. |
Author: | Seren [ December 17th, 2012, 6:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
That would be amazing if you could. I know IPA is the most accurate because there's sounds in Elvish which aren't present in English and because of different accents etc but I really cannot understand IPA. If I can get just a rough idea of how to say a translation of my name I will be happy. Although saying that, the meaning of my name on that list is one I've never seen before. My name is Annabelle and the meaning of it is "grace and beauty" (the Anna part being the grace part and belle being beauty) but I've never seen lovable as a meaning for it before. |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ December 26th, 2012, 8:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
How is everyone's break going? Mine has been lovely so far. I've finished about 600 names in English, 1200 Elvish names. According to the source I used, Annabel is a variation of Amabel (made to change by Anna) which means I had to choose a meaning. "Grace" in this case is referring to God's Grace, and the only way to translate that is "Eru-gift" or "Eru-sweetness" based on Tolkien's own translation of "grace". "Eru-gift/sweetness pretty" makes for a rather cumbersome name: Baineruant/Erulivain and Vanyeruanna/Vanyerulisse. So, I went with the translation of Amabel, which is much prettier and easier to say. |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ December 27th, 2012, 7:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
Anameleth wrote: At the moment, we're just working with IPA, but over time I'm sure we could try and get some pronunciation guides that are easier to understand. I read IPA fairly well now, so if I have the time I could probably work on that after Christmas. I'm not sure you'll be able to get anything that's remotely accurate or not easily misunderstood, beyond IPA. I've tried... oh, how I've tried! But it always led to endless confusion, or basically making a new phonetic alphabet, so I just went with an already established phonetic alphabet instead. |
Author: | Anameleth [ December 27th, 2012, 7:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I'll do my best. It might not be as completely accurate as IPA, but it might be easier to understand, which I personally think is just as important. |
Author: | Will [ December 27th, 2012, 8:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
It would be great if you could work on that Ana! Providing an easier pronunciation guide next to the IPA will make it accessible for everyone. |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ December 27th, 2012, 3:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
Once you make it, post how it works in detail here, so I can help. |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ December 27th, 2012, 11:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
Some basic spellchecking, and I'll send the page in. I added an alphabet reference bar so people can click over to their name quickly. 816 English names translated! |
Author: | dreamingfifi [ January 9th, 2013, 7:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I realize that the "reforming of the elvish section" has been from the start my little OCD crusade. But, I think of it has benefits for both Arwen Undomiel and me. I don't have to worry about people getting horrible translations here, and Arwen Undomiel gets some cool content and recognition by a wider community. I know you all love the old name sections, but let me try to show you what I see when I look at them, and hopefully I may persuade the majority, as you would prefer I do. I shall be ignoring the pronunciation problems, because that would take far too much time and likely make me all upset again. This shall focus on the translations themselves. S. for Sindarin; Q. for Quenya. Words without a notation are the same in both languages. Quote: Aafke Health? Hûredhiel (Hoor-eh-thee-ell) S. Vigor (missing vowel reduction) - S. sowing - daughter of Quote: Aaliyah Ascender Adlanniel (Ahd-lahn-nee-ell) S. slope - daughter of Quote: Abigail God is joy Erulassë (Air-oo-lahs-say) Eru - Q. leaf Quote: Ada Happy Alassëa (tr. Elv. "daddy") (Ah-lahs-say-ah) Q. Joyous Quote: Addison Daughter of Adam Adanessa (Ah-dahn-ehs-sah) S. daddy - Q. young Quote: Addylyn Adorned cascade? Vanlanthiriel (lit. "beautiful waterfall") (Vahn-lahn-theer-ee-ell) Q. goose (with Sindarin vowel reduction) - S. waterfall - daughter of Quote: Adele Noble Arwen (Ahr-wehn) S. Noble - S. maiden Quote: Adilya Justice Faelwen (File-wehn) S. just - S. maiden Quote: Aditi Free Mirima (Meer-ee-mah) Q. free (outdated... in LotR style Q. it means "very valuable") Quote: Adrienne Rich Alya (Ahl-yah) Q. rich Quote: Agatha Good Maerwen (Mire-wehn) S. good - S. maiden Quote: Aimee Beloved friend Mellimeldisiel (Mehl-lee-mehl-dee-see-ell) S. dear - random meaningless syllable - S. female friend - daughter of Quote: Alanah Maiden Vendethiel (Vehn-deh-thee-ell) Q. maiden - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of Quote: Alanna Beautiful Vanya (Vahn-yah) Q. beautiful Quote: Aleia The ascent Adlanna (lit. "the slope") (Ahd-lahn-nah) S. "it slopes" Quote: Alena Light Caladwen (Kah-lahd-wehn) S. light - S. maiden Quote: Alexandra Defender of men Beriadanwen (Bear-ee-ah-dahn-wehn) S. protecting - S. maker - S. maiden Quote: Ali Sublime Tauredhiel (Towr-eh-thee-ell) Q. forest - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of Quote: Alice Truth Thenidiel (Thehn-id-ee-ell) S. short/grey - S. tear - daughter of Quote: Alicia Noble birth Nostariel (Nohs-tar-ee-ell) S. family - S. noble - daughter of Quote: Allora Divine counselor Valainistima (lit. "divine learning") (Vah-line-ihs-tee-mah) Q. divine - Q. knowledgeable Quote: Alyssa Rational Sanya (lit. "normal") (Sahn-yah) Q. law-abiding Quote: Allegra Joyful Alassiel (Ah-ahs-see-ell) Q. joy - daughter of Quote: Amanda Beloved Melda (Mehl-dah) Q. beloved Quote: Amber Precious jewel Meldamiriel (lit. "Dear jewel") (Mehl-dah-meer-ee-ell) Q. dear - Q. jewel (with Sindarin vowel reduction applied) - daughter of Quote: Amelia Admiring Miluiel (lit. "friendly") (Mill-oo-ee-ell) S. lovely - daughter of/female Quote: Amycate Pure-beloved Manwameldiel (Mahn-awh-mell-dee-ell) Q. ready (out-dated term) - Q. dear - daughter of Quote: Analee Grace Eruanna or Erulissë (Air-oo-ahn-nah; Air-oo-lee-say) Eru - Q. gift or Eru - Q. sweetness Quote: Anastasia Resurrection Adonnenniel (lit. "rebirth") (Ah-donn-enn-ee-ell) S. re-begotten - extra letter added - daughter of Quote: Andrea Courageous Huoriel (Hoo-ore-ee-ell) Q. courage - daughter of Quote: Andreanne Womanly Dessuithiel (Dehs-swee-thee-ell) S. woman - S. like - random meaningless sound - daughter of Quote: Angela Angelic Valadhiel (Vah-lahth-ee-ell) Q. Vala - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of Quote: Angelina Little angel Aintithenniel (Ine-tee-thehn-nee-ell) Q. holy (missing the last letter) S. tiny - extra letter added - daughter of Quote: Anjali Messenger Mentathiel (Mehn-tah-thee-ell) Q. message - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of Quote: Ann Gracious Raina (Rine-ah) Q. gracious Quote: Anna Grace Eruanna or Erulissë (tr. Elv. "gift") (Air-oo-ahn-nah; Air-oo-leese-say) Eru - Q. gift or Eru - Q. sweetness Quote: Anneliese Consecrated and gracious Aistaraina (lit. "blessed and gracious") (Eye-stah-rye-nah) Q. holy - Q. gracious Quote: Annelot Hidden-gracious Haldaraina (Hahl-dah-rye-nah) Quote: April April Gwirithiel (Gweer-ith-ee-ell) S. April (Gondorian calendar) - daughter of Quote: Arena Holy one Airedhiel (Ire-ehth-ee-ell) Q. holy - random meaningless sound that doesn't occur in Quenya - daughter of This is all I have time for now (homework, yay), but can you see why I really don't like these names? |
Author: | Nurrantiel Mashiara [ January 10th, 2013, 1:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Suggestion - The Elvish Section |
I have to say I'm really not sure what you're trying to point out? But regardless, the point of keeping the old name lists was that we wanted to have name lists up at all times on the site. Personally it doesn't matter to me which list is there, as long as there is a usable one. I can take out the links to the old lists, and if there's an outcry, put them back. |
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