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 Post subject: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 7th, 2013, 4:06 pm 
Dunadan
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Disclaimer: This is pure speculation and probably has no truth in it what-so-ever, but im just questioning.

So the Hobbit. AMAZING movie. even though the movie doesnt do the book justice, although its close other than the parts from the assumed Sil. With the addition of Galadriel i was happy because she is my favorite character in the whole wide universe, yes, above Legolas.

A piece of speculation and theory has come up in a conversation i was having, that with the council of wizards, when Galadriel was talking with Gandalf and they had that moment of completely understanding each other and taking in each others thoughts and feelings. Am i the only one who saw that look?

speculation/theory: Do you think Galadriel and Gandalf had an affair?

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 7th, 2013, 5:44 pm 
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absolutely not, I think their relationship is purely friends based, they are both pretty much the same age and have gone through a lot, and may care a lot about eachother, but just as friends.

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 8th, 2013, 3:31 am 
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Tolkien dosen't think like that

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 17th, 2013, 8:38 pm 
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I think that they definitely trying to imply that there was something going on between the two in the movie, but it was hard to place. Even in the movie, it's most likely that what we saw was sympathy and understanding, not an all-out romance. As Maneth said, they're in a similar position and they're both struggling with similar things. To answer your question, Galadriel and Gandalf don't have any sort of romance in the books. My opinion is that they put romantic hints in the movie because of the Hollywood mindset that requires a romance in most movies, even if it's just a side-story.

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 18th, 2013, 10:03 am 
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^except Galadriel is married to Celeborn. And when would they have had time to form any sort of romantic relationship anyway? I personally think it's meant to show that they understand each other's struggles, and Galadriel is comforting Gandalf because he is worried. I think the fact that there seems to be a need to interpret this romantically is a really sad trend in today's society. Platonic relationships are possible between men and women, but we seem to be forgetting that more and more.

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 18th, 2013, 4:43 pm 
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I hope not! It might be a cause for certain fans to go projectile in the theaters :disgust:
I highly doubt that was ever mentioned in any of the books, and I'd be willing to wager that PJ wouldn't add something quote so...depressing.


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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 19th, 2013, 5:16 pm 
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I don't think so. They had some sort of look, but I think it was merely good friendship.

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 20th, 2013, 1:50 pm 
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There's a crowd of RPers on tumblr who've dissected every bit of information regarding elves and their relationships, and what it boils down to is that elves fall in love once, and only once--they do not have affairs under any circumstance, and even if one's spouse dies, they probably won't remarry (Finwe being, I think, the only elf in all of history who does actually take a second wife after the first dies).

So with that in mind, Galadriel and Gandalf aren't a thing. No doubt they're very good friends and they care about each other, but Galadriel is married to Celeborn, and he's the only man she's going to be with.

(therefore I think the theatres of the world will be spared from projectile vomiting for now ;))

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: February 21st, 2013, 2:21 pm 
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I would like to look at this dissection if possible Shadowcat, but for now I recall the following, from JRR Tolkien's Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, published in Morgoth's Ring...

'The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at least free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.'

Obviously the scenario with Finwe is the exception regarding a second marriage, and this became a notable matter in the history. Elves normally remained married 'beyond death' because they do not leave the World nor its time, but should, generally speaking anyway, be reincarnated and continue being married to the same person.

And concerning the right to revoke a betrothal: '... but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.'

And if one wants to focus on the word 'seldom' to then suggest 'maybe Galadriel' then I would counter that I think there has to be some true, 'positive' evidence to even think that a given Elf (much less such a notable Elf like Galadriel), is an example outside the norm -- and by positive evidence I mean: lack of evidence alone does not mean one can point to an Elf and say 'maybe' him or her. That is not compelling to my mind, but mere speculation based on the small door Tolkien seems to have left open here.

And in my opinion one cannot use the film for evidence. The scenes in question are essentially Peter Jackson's fan fiction concerning Galadriel, and they no more hold true for Tolkien's Middle-earth than Arwen riding with Frodo to Rivendell.


Considering the books, I'm not sure there is any compelling evidence to illustrate that Gandalf was a closer friend to Galadriel than he was with other Elves that he worked often enough with, or spent time with, male or female. Is there? I don't recall anything specific at the moment.


Some have pointed to Galadriel desiring Gandalf to be the head of the White Council for example, but this not only need not mean Galadriel was closer in friendship to Gandalf than others of the Wise, but I would suggest that Galadriel really should not be making such a decision based on friendship (in my opinion), but rather due to her insight that Gandalf would be the best person for the job.

Galadriel fiddling with Gandalf's hair is Peter Jackson's Galadriel.


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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: March 18th, 2013, 8:45 am 
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I think it's pure friendship between them...

It's Jackson's version so as the other writers who wrote about Tolkien which I am angry At.

At the moment I am disappointed from many of the authors who wrote about Tolkien's works. :/ they spook of bloody words, translated the meaning of his words in plain dirt. I am in great anger, he wrote neat words to cover the common usage of somethings such as taking a wife by force.
Also they think pure friendship between males and deep caring is homosexuality (I am really angry).

He also created some words in LotR language to serve other aim but still they took it as bad words (screams).

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: August 20th, 2013, 12:31 pm 
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Elthir wrote:
I would like to look at this dissection if possible Shadowcat, but for now I recall the following, from JRR Tolkien's Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, published in Morgoth's Ring...

'The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at least free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.'

Obviously the scenario with Finwe is the exception regarding a second marriage, and this became a notable matter in the history. Elves normally remained married 'beyond death' because they do not leave the World nor its time, but should, generally speaking anyway, be reincarnated and continue being married to the same person.

And concerning the right to revoke a betrothal: '... but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.'

And if one wants to focus on the word 'seldom' to then suggest 'maybe Galadriel' then I would counter that I think there has to be some true, 'positive' evidence to even think that a given Elf (much less such a notable Elf like Galadriel), is an example outside the norm -- and by positive evidence I mean: lack of evidence alone does not mean one can point to an Elf and say 'maybe' him or her. That is not compelling to my mind, but mere speculation based on the small door Tolkien seems to have left open here.

And in my opinion one cannot use the film for evidence. The scenes in question are essentially Peter Jackson's fan fiction concerning Galadriel, and they no more hold true for Tolkien's Middle-earth than Arwen riding with Frodo to Rivendell.


Considering the books, I'm not sure there is any compelling evidence to illustrate that Gandalf was a closer friend to Galadriel than he was with other Elves that he worked often enough with, or spent time with, male or female. Is there? I don't recall anything specific at the moment.




EXCELLENT argument. Super kudos from this corner!! :hug:



I have a *personal* theory that Gandalf and Galadriel knew each other in the West... I don't think it was a romantic thing at all, but as Gandalf was a Maiar, I wouldn't be surprised if Galadriel had actually studied under/with him. The Sil says that Gandalf/Olorin lived in the gardens of Lorien, but often also studied with Nienna ("and of her he learned pity and patience"). Galadriel was also said to have spent much of her time in the gardens of Lorien.
I don't know how big these gardens were, but I'm sure that they would have at least met each other before the exile of the noldor.

And, as a note, Gandalf was pretty dang awesome! This is my favorite passage about him from the Sil, which just shows some of what may be his maiar "powers":
"for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness."

Elthir wrote:
Some have pointed to Galadriel desiring Gandalf to be the head of the White Council for example, but this not only need not mean Galadriel was closer in friendship to Gandalf than others of the Wise, but I would suggest that Galadriel really should not be making such a decision based on friendship (in my opinion), but rather due to her insight that Gandalf would be the best person for the job.


here's the passage considering the formation of the white council you referred to:

"But at length the Shadow returned and it's power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír. And Curunír (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him."

So Galadriel trusted Gandalf more than she trusted Saruman (at least with this task), which lead to some interesting tensions. But Gandalf refused to be the head of the council because he would only be tied to the Valar who sent him.

Very cool, in my opinion. :kick:




Moral of this long post: Galadriel and Gandalf did not have any romantic thing going on. They are more likely close friends from the West before time existed.

:bye2:

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: August 21st, 2013, 8:59 am 
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Thank you Meganelf! And I hate to repay such kind kudos with this question, but, are you maybe mixing up Melian with Galadriel here?

Melian is said to have dwelt long in Lorien, and Olorin 'too dwelt in Lorien', but of Olorin and the Elves, as you already noted above: '... for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts.'

So I get the feeling that, generally speaking with respect to the Elves anyway, Olorin chose to walk among them either unseen or unnoticed (as an Elf among Elves). And I say 'generally speaking' as in late texts Tolkien did specifically note for example that Glorfindel had become a friend and follower of Olorin after his (Glorfindel's) reincarnation in Aman.

That said, maybe it notes elsewhere that Galadriel spent much time in Lorien? If so I don't recall at the moment. Something I do remember right now is that the name Lorien was probably due to Galadriel's influence...

Quote:
(...) Lórien itself was originally the Quenya name of a region in Valinor, often used as the name of the Vala (Irmo) to whom it belonged; 'a place of rest and shadowy trees and fountains, a retreat from cares and griefs.' The further change from Lórinand 'Valley of Gold' to Lórien 'may well be due to Galadriel herself,' for 'the resemblance cannot be accidental. She had endeavoured to make Lórien a refuge and an island of peace and beauty, a memorial of ancient days, but was now filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening. It may be noted that Treebeard interpreted Lothlórien as 'Dream-flower.''

The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien's note to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn


But that much, I think, seems to speak more to Galadriel endeavouring to make her realm in Middle-earth a memorial.


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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2013, 2:15 pm 
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There more like brother and sister, PJ in a video diary said that they cant hug or kiss so they could just hold hands as a comfort

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: January 13th, 2014, 1:41 pm 
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Elthir wrote:
Thank you Meganelf! And I hate to repay such kind kudos with this question, but, are you maybe mixing up Melian with Galadriel here?


Well, when the passage is referring to Melian we have to remember that they are specifically talking about the Maiar, so they (she and Olorin) would naturally both be talked about.

I don't remember if I had read that Galadriel had specifically visited the gardens of Lorien, or if it was just my own conclusion since she did, as you say, make Lothlorien in tribute/memory of the peace of the gardens in the Undying Lands. I assume that if she is making that parallel that she had visited the gardens before the exile. (we also need remember that there were countless years before the exile that all the elves and vanyar were just chillin', so I'm sure pretty much everyone knew everyone!)

Quote:
So I get the feeling that, generally speaking with respect to the Elves anyway, Olorin chose to walk among them either unseen or unnoticed (as an Elf among Elves). And I say 'generally speaking' as in late texts Tolkien did specifically note for example that Glorfindel had become a friend and follower of Olorin after his (Glorfindel's) reincarnation in Aman.


Also, Cirdan knew who they were when they entered middle earth via the grey havens. I would assume that other High Elves might be able to recognize them as well if they take the time.... ;)


Either way! I think we agree that there is nothing romantic going on between Galadriel and Gandalf. :happy:

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: September 25th, 2016, 3:15 am 
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Galadriel2812 wrote:
Disclaimer: This is pure speculation and probably has no truth in it what-so-ever, but im just questioning.

A piece of speculation and theory has come up in a conversation i was having, that with the council of wizards, when Galadriel was talking with Gandalf and they had that moment of completely understanding each other and taking in each others thoughts and feelings. Am i the only one who saw that look?

speculation/theory: Do you think Galadriel and Gandalf had an affair?


No.... but it would make an interesting bit of fanfic.

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 Post subject: Re: Gandalf and Galadriel
PostPosted: September 25th, 2016, 8:01 pm 
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I don't see either of them being that type honestly. I think they both had enough foresight to see there was a bigger picture at work and that they both had responsibilities much greater than something of that sort.

I think they would have had a very "wise" relationship. If that makes sense. They both were ancient and experienced. They would have clicked and been on the same page in ways that few others could be (aside from some of the original elves and the few other wizards)

It, in my mind,m would be akin to a couple old folks now days talking about the dirty 30s and the depression. Two people who lived through it and knew all the inns and outs. Our generations would be totally lost and out of the loop. We couldn't relate on the same level, but they could relate on a much deeper level and a personal level because it was something that very much effected people in a personal way.

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