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 Post subject: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 27th, 2013, 9:23 am 
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Hi guys, since the time of the second part of the Hobbit is upcoming I'd like to know your opinion about Tauriel the new elf of the trilogy. Thank you a lot!

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 27th, 2013, 2:52 pm 
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Do not like. Do not want. :storm: I will not watch the next two Hobbit films because I know I'm just going to get angry about it (well, even more angry when I see just how much of a twisted abomination it is) and based upon the first film, I don't really think I'm going to be missing that much.

Will still be buying the soundtracks for them because Howard Shore :happy: but won't be watching them.

(Would like to point out before anybody jumps on me. I'm not trying to say that other people shouldn't watch the films. Far from it, if you want to watch them and if you like them, that's brilliant. But this is personal to me, and for me, while I can accept a lot of the changes which are necessary to adapt a book into a film, this is a change which I view as completely unnecessary and actually devalues the story. And if the romance rumour between her and another character (not Legolas) is true, I might end up smashing things if I do watch it. Therefore, I don't want to watch it because it upsets me. )

EDIT:
OK, I'm going to try to expand on my views in a sort of coherent way.

Like I said, I know and accept that there is a big difference between a book and a film. However, even though legally, if they have the film rights they can do what they want with the source material from the book, I do feel that film makers need to respect the author's work. Obviously, this is a lot easier when the author is alive and is able to be consulted.

Now, I know with the LotR films, there were a lot of changes from the book. I didn't know that when I first watch the films because I'd never read any Tolkien before. In fact, family members had tried to get me to read the Hobbit when I was little but I couldn't get on with it. I did read Roverandom though. If I hadn't watch the films I never would have got into the rest of Tolkien's work and they gave me the motivation to try to read it. It still took me 6 years of trying from first watch FotR in the cinema before I was finally able to read LotR from start to finish.
However, since reading the book, I know what the changes are in the films. I can accept them. I can get that they were needed in order for it to actually work in the medium of film. Best example of this is the change to Faramir. Now in the book, it's a lot easier to explain why Faramir isn't tempted by the Ring. However, in a film, where you cannot expect the audience to have read the book, it would not have worked if they'd spent all of FotR and half of TTT portraying this object as something everybody covets and is tempted by and then having Frodo and Sam come across a random dude in the Wild who basically goes "Oh you have the Ring of Power that everybody wants? How lovely! Do you want a cuppa and then you can be on your way?"
It wouldn't have worked. However, PJ acknowledged the change to the book fans when he has Sam say "by rights we shouldn't even be here" when they're in Osgiliath. (Although, I am well aware that there are plenty of book fans who hated the changes in the films and hate the films. That's fine. )

Now, with the first Hobbit film, there were plenty of changes and plenty of things added in. Yes, the White Council stuff didn't happen in the book but it was happening at that time and it's needed to help bridge between the Hobbit films and the LotR films. Even the Azog storyline is understandable because it adds into the plot and helps move the film along.

But here's my big problem. When PJ made the LotR films, he knew he had to appease the book fans because they were going to be a large part of his audience. So while he needed to make changes in order for it to work as a film and in order for audience members who hadn't read the book to still be able to engage and understand it, he couldn't make huge massive changes. Like he did want Arwen to fight at Helm's Deep but they didn't do that in the end because of just how much it would screw with the story. (But having her instead of Glorfindel makes sense because it introduces her and the Aragorn/Arwen storyline and means audience members don't need to keep track of random characters who appear for a few scenes and then disappear for the rest of the films. )
But now, with the Hobbit films, PJ doesn't need to appease the book fans as much. Because he made a huge success with the LotR films and gathered a whole new load of fans who probably hadn't read Tolkien's works and a lot probably still haven't. So basically, he doesn't have to be as restrained with the changes to the Hobbit as he did with LotR. Also, those audience members will be a lot more accepting of changes because they won't know that they're changes. Although, some of those audience members will be expecting another epic like the LotR films and they won't know that the Hobbit is lot more light-hearted than LotR because it's a children's book. Which is another reason for the Azog storyline, because there is the light-hearted silliness similar to the book, but the Azog thing adds the serious side to it.

OK, this is a whole lot of rambling to basically say that I feel like PJ has got a bit to big for his boots and this Tauriel thing just feels like him deciding that he can do whatever he likes to do. It's like the Arwen at Helm's Deep thing, he wanted to do that but it was pretty unnecessary and really would not fit in with the story and would have alienated a large part of his target audience (the book fans) back then. But now, he can do what he likes.

Which is all well and fine like I said, but I don't like it. Therefore, I don't want to watch it. Because, to me, it just feels like PJ sticking up his middle finger at Tolkien and at the book fans and saying "I'm going to do what I want to do and there's nothing you can do about it." Which is right, there's nothing I can do about it apart from not watch the films because even if it's not a complete disaster, the fact that he's done such a huge, pointless change (in my opinion) makes me angry because he's stomped all over Tolkien.

Really short version: The LotR films felt like a homage to Tolkien as well as a way to make money. The Hobbit films just feel like a huge money-making scheme and that PJ feels like he can do what he want now after the success of the LotR and nothing is going to stop him.

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 27th, 2013, 5:16 pm 
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I've moved this to the Hobbit movie section, since this topic is about a character who is not explained in the book ;-)

About Tauriel: After re-reading "the Hobbit" last summer I realised there is a Captain of the Guard in Mirkwood. This character is only named once or twice but is not given a personal name. A bit like Thranduil, whose name we don't know in "the Hobbit" because he is referred to as the Elvenking. Anyway, since this Captain character is not explicitly described, we don't know whether the character is male or female, so I personally don't have any problems with PJ giving this position to Tauriel. From older and more extensive texts I remembered that female Elves can also hold high positions in organisations that are sometimes seen as manly (e.g. army, guard). So, completely fine with that!

I'm more worrying about the large amount of attention and screentime that seems to be directed at the Elves in general. At least half of the trailer consists of Thranduil & Co, while in my idea the quest for Erebor should remain the main storyline. Of course it will be nice to see some more of Mirkwood, hear some more background and see some more depth added to the storyline - Thranduil is a bit of a jerk in the book, but then he isn't given any background information - I'm just hoping it won't turn into the Mirkwood show.

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 28th, 2013, 3:42 pm 
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Lhunardaien wrote:
(...) Anyway, since this Captain character is not explicitly described, we don't know whether the character is male or female, so I personally don't have any problems with PJ giving this position to Tauriel. From older and more extensive texts I remembered that female Elves can also hold high positions in organisations that are sometimes seen as manly (e.g. army, guard). So, completely fine with that!


What older and more extensive texts are you referring to here?

If I may ask :-D


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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 28th, 2013, 4:37 pm 
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(But having her instead of Glorfindel makes sense because it introduces her and the Aragorn/Arwen storyline and means audience members don't need to keep track of random characters who appear for a few scenes and then disappear for the rest of the films.)


But Jackson could have used Legolas then, and have him explain he was helping in the search after arriving at Rivendell. Plus, Jackson took the minor role of Haldir and gave him 'more' to do than in the books.

Also if characters are truly kept minor, in my opinion the audience members don't feel the need to keep track of them. Guards or scouts can show up and 'disappear' and the audience doesn't feel the need to wonder about what happens to them, once their function as a minor character is over. 'Elven-scout with horse' could have worked well enough in my opinion: if this character was introduced at a point of action and more or less kept off screen and in the background, he would be little more than someone who provides the horse, while also giving the audience the clue that the Company was at least nearing an Elven-realm.

The Tolkien fan would know it's the mighty Glorfindel, but for the film he would be someone the audience doesn't need to care about. Asfaloth is the main focus now... with Frodo alone, as it should have been in my opinion.

That's just another possible option I think. And Arwen could have been introduced in a flashback scene [Aragorn] somewhere during the walk from Bree, for example.

Bakshi used Legolas here for the same reason, I would guess. Plus, did Jackson -- in the films -- even bother to explain what Arwen was doing out alone here? He might have, but I forget.


Sorry to digress from the Tauriel issue. You might have guessed that I don't think Tauriel was necessary, not even within a three film approach [which itself was already a choice of the filmmakers]. And I think 'what can be done in films' compared to books is a very, very subjective matter.

Not that you said otherwise.

In any case I disagree with the way Jackson handled this: not just in that he employed Arwen, but the way Jackson has her sneaking up on Aragorn, and her riding with Frodo.


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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 28th, 2013, 5:11 pm 
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Elthir wrote:
Lhunardaien wrote:
(...) Anyway, since this Captain character is not explicitly described, we don't know whether the character is male or female, so I personally don't have any problems with PJ giving this position to Tauriel. From older and more extensive texts I remembered that female Elves can also hold high positions in organisations that are sometimes seen as manly (e.g. army, guard). So, completely fine with that!


What older and more extensive texts are you referring to here?

If I may ask :-D


That's a very good question! I'll try to see if I can find it back somewhere :) Although now I'm starting to wonder if I haven't read it somewhere on the internet, which makes it more unreliable.. Anyway, I'll keep you updated!

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 29th, 2013, 10:19 am 
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In Laws And Customs Among The Eldar [Morgoth's Ring], as I interpret things, Tolkien generally states that while in dire straits and desperate defense the Elven women could fight valiantly, it was yet the Elven-men who were the 'professional' warriors.

But in Jackson's world [seemingly from what we know so far] Tauriel is not simply a women fighting in desperate defense -- an Elven maid that was put in a dire position and was thus forced to take up arms in defense of herself or others [like Tolkien's Idril at Gondolin for example, or even Galadriel at Swanhaven, at least according to a later idea] -- but it appears, at least, her very role is that of a warrior or guard, an arguable 'military' position.

Tolkien's passage begins...

'There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned.'

But, in the very next sentence [not a new paragraph]...

'There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.'

Moreover there is an 'other hand' as far as Elven-men being healers [which goes well with 'most practised' as well], but seemingly no other hand with respect to Elven-women being 'professional' soldiers.


Okay, well the Jackson fan [or the filmmakers themselves] can claim that maybe the custom differed at this time in Mirkwood, or maybe with respect to the Non-eldar even [according to The Lord of the Rings as published, the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood were mostly 'East-elves' and not considered Eldar]...

... but to my mind that is rather a theoried assumption in light of the arguable room Tolkien makes by merely very generally pointing out that some customs might vary in place and time, or among the Eldar...

... and in my opinion that is a long enough way from a text that actually can be said to support Tauriel's apparent role in Jackson's film. The sweeping implication here is rather, in my opinion, basically as I stated first: that while in dire straits and desperate defense the Elven women could fight valiantly, it was yet the Elven-men who bore arms at need.

Although that said, maybe you were thinking of some other text in any case.


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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: October 31st, 2013, 6:06 am 
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Only PJ could turn a beautiful actress such as Evangeline Lily into that.....

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2013, 12:39 pm 
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Well I like Tauriel and I gonna see the second movie even if she's just a 'creation'. I like Elves a lot!
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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2013, 1:32 pm 
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Elthir wrote:
Although that said, maybe you were thinking of some other text in any case.


I really can't remember which text I'd read on the difference between Elven men and women, so I think I've must read it somewhere on the internet, which clearly is not something written by Tolkien ;-)

And yes, I agree with you: the text you quoted shows that although Elven women can bear arms and yield them effectively, it was usually Elven men who actually fought in battle. Yet I still like the idea of Tauriel, and I'm curious to see how she will be portrayed in the movie.

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: November 2nd, 2013, 2:12 pm 
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I like the fact because the lack of female characters was getting on my nerves, so we have a strong tauriel in the place of a captin so this shows elven women can be strong. like Earth women

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: November 3rd, 2013, 8:14 am 
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:-D I agree with you guys that's why love Tauriel. Before her i loved Arwen and Galadriel (more Arwen, she was my favorite she-elf) but now I'm curios to see her :kick:


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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: December 4th, 2013, 6:35 pm 
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I am going to wait until i see the movie until i make a final desicion about her, but i probably will like her...she has cool quotes!


'Are we not part of this world?'
'It will not end here, with every victory this evil will grow.'

Yea!

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: December 31st, 2013, 8:40 am 
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legolin12 wrote:
I am going to wait until i see the movie until i make a final desicion about her, but i probably will like her...she has cool quotes!


'Are we not part of this world?'
'It will not end here, with every victory this evil will grow.'

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: December 31st, 2013, 10:07 am 
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After seeing DoS, my opinion of Tauriel changed ...she was better than I expected. Honestly, I wish I hadn't spent so much time ranting and complaining about her, because I didn't know what she'd be like.
I think Tauriel was better than Legolas (in the Hobbit, of course)

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 Post subject: Re: About the new female elf...
PostPosted: January 1st, 2014, 1:59 pm 
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legolin12 wrote:
I think Tauriel was better than Legolas (in the Hobbit, of course)


You're right, she is better.

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