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A sacrice of pride?
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9651		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Sinbearer [ July 13th, 2006, 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  A sacrice of pride?
In many threads I see statements about Boromir’s pride, weakness, and honor. Perhaps most of his life Boromir’s pride was linked to his honor. That wasn’t always a good thing but I think it is very revealing that, in the movie, as Boromir lay dying, Aragorn tells him that he has "kept his honour". In his dying words Boromir, whose pride had earlier kept him from showing allegiance to Aragorn, now makes the most beautiful statement, "I would have followed you, my brother, my captain, my king." So, it seems that in a way, Boromir sacrificed his pride to keep his honor. What do you think?
Author:  Eä [ July 14th, 2006, 9:53 am ]
Post subject: 
The whole question about pride and honour is interesting, but I think it is somehow difficult for modern readers to fully understand the meaning of it, but let's try! :angel:

Boromir is a most intriguing character. His life, the choices he make, his whole way of thinking is clearly influenced by the his upbringing and his position being the son of the Steward. His family has ruled Gondor for centuries and even though the Steward is only supposed to rule and govern the country until the King returns, I believe that most people at the time acknowledged the steward as the rightful ruler and didn't really believe the King would return again.
As for Boromir he is a warrior and a leader. He is used to giving orders - not taking them. I understand that he must be regarding Aragorn as a challenge. Aragorn pops up out of the wild and claims to be the Heir of Isildur but he hasn't proved neither his lineage nor his leadership skills. At the time of the council of Elrond Gondor has been in more or less open war with Mordor for a while and I assume Boromir would question why Aragorn didn't show up to fight for his country.

Well, to get to your question, I assume we base this mostly on the movies and after Boromir experiences how he is tempted by the Ring and almost hurts Frodo - the one he has agreed to protect - I think he realizes how powerful the Ring really is but also that he is not the one to wield it. The incident might even open his eyes for Aragorn's true strength since his is able to resist the Ring. Boromir is a proud man but I also think he is able to realize when he meets his superior. This is why his last words becomes both an apology and an oath of allegiance to Aragorn.
Author:  Sinbearer [ July 15th, 2006, 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  How I want to die!
Eä wrote:
The incident might even open his eyes for Aragorn's true strength since his is able to resist the Ring. Boromir is a proud man but I also think he is able to realize when he meets his superior. This is why his last words becomes both an apology and an oath of allegiance to Aragorn.


Yes! That is a well spoken observation! I love that thought. We know that Boromir did get to that place somehow. He died with a smile on his face...in total peace. That is how I want to die!
Author:  Eä [ July 21st, 2006, 1:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thank you Sinbearer. I have noticed your great interest in Boromir's character and your well-spoken arguments on him, which all appear so fair and clear, so there is hardly any more to say. Allow me nevertheless to rant a bit about some thoughts that popped up in my head when I read this.

There is a lot to say and to understand about Boromir. Somehow he appears to be one of the characters that we can most easily relate to. He bears the darkness within him, like all humans, but he also knows his own values and what is the right thing to do. He struggles with it, looses, but (literally speaking!) fights his way back and manages to vindicate himself in the end. I think many among the modern audience reflect themselves in him, even though most of us might not have the strength or courage to fight back. Boromir becomes a living example that it is actually possible to mend or put things right, if one has the will to do so. A great inspiration for us.
Author:  Sinbearer [ July 21st, 2006, 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Living examples
Yes! *wipes away tears* There is hope for you and I. We too can struggle past the hopelessness and find hope! We too can "become living examples that it is actually possible to mend or put things right, if we have the will to do so".
Author:  Turwaithiel Rochben [ July 22nd, 2006, 2:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whoa guys, you both are bringing tears to my eyes. Wow...I've always wanted to meet people like you two...well, here's my input:

Boromir is an warrior, true born warrior; honest and loyal to his Kingdom and King,(even thoguh Denothor is is father, I think if it was someone else he still would have been loyal to him. *note the fact that Denothor is an Steward, but anyway*...) Boromir is also very noteful of changes or failure. When they are in Lorien, Boromir tells Aragorn, "...My father is an noble man, but his rule is failing and my people's faith..." He knows that things can go wrong and he excepts that fact, which is one of the true quailties of an warrior that sometimes is hard for real warriors to except...
To try and answer your question, Sinbearer, um...well, he did sacrific his pride for his honor...but he also wasn't ashamed to admit defeat and recogize Aragorn for his true talents...which is one of the best things that Boromir did in the movie...it is hard to find an warrior that admits defeat...he will do anything to provent it, of course, but he is willing to fight to the death to protect two hobbits...which his father isn't excatly glad of...he might have been more proud if he was protecting Gondor's Finest, but really, I think Boromir shinned through the darkness and showed his real quaility, even though he fell to the ring, his fall did not go to vain.
Author:  Sinbearer [ July 22nd, 2006, 5:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Turwaithiel wrote:
...but he also wasn't ashamed to admit defeat and recogize Aragorn for his true talents...which is one of the best things that Boromir did in the movie...it is hard to find an warrior that admits defeat...he will do anything to provent it, of course, but he is willing to fight to the death to protect two hobbits...which his father isn't excatly glad of...he might have been more proud if he was protecting Gondor's Finest....


What you said about admitting failure, Turwaithiel, was great.

I think the movie conveys well Tolkien’s characterization of Boromir. In his dying word he says to Aragorn, “Forgive me. I did not see. I have failed you all.” Then Aragorn says, “No, Boromir. You fought bravely. You have kept your honor.”

In these final words Boromir admits that he was blind and did not see the full truth, he admits his failures and he asks for forgiveness. In response Aragorn assures him that his life was not a failure and that regardless of his struggle with the truth, he had lived his life with honor to the very end.

Boromir’s father didn't understand the true nature of honor and valor. Honor is not just about how one dies but more about how one lives. Boromir's life was lived with honor because I believe that throughout it he was willing to look at his failures and oversights—to struggle with them as we all do—to be willing to learn and change for the better at every point—to grapple with his pride and his darker side to get the mastery. So to me, when Aragorn says, “You fought bravely”, it means more than just his last stand—it means he fought bravely throughout his entire life.

Because of this I believe his father was wrong. I do not think that he would have had more honor in death even if he had died at the head of a glorious army defending the White City.
Author:  Turwaithiel Rochben [ July 23rd, 2006, 2:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Boromir’s father didn't understand the true nature of honor and valor. Honor is not just about how one dies but more about how one lives.


That is one of the most unspoken yet oh so true things I have ever heard anone say, Sinbearer. Thank you for showing the true meaning of life in honor. You have showned me that...thanks a lot.
Author:  Earendil Light [ July 24th, 2006, 6:03 am ]
Post subject: 
I love that scene and Boromir's words to Aragorn his king. My heart bleeds again..
Author:  Turwaithiel Rochben [ July 24th, 2006, 9:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
(^^right on right on)

I have another thought...I am Christan, so this is why I kinda make this "connection".

In the part where Boromir dies for the hobbits to give them an chance for escape, it reminds me of Jesus dieing for our sins.
You see, if Boromir didn't come to defend the hobbits, the Uruk that was approaching them raised his sword. Say Boromir didn't make it...the Uruk might have killed them and not have found the ring. Then, they group might have found Frodo and Sam and followed them, leading to there deaths and founding of the ring and so on...
Jesus died for us to be free and I thnk in an way, Boromir did that also.
Author:  Sinbearer [ July 24th, 2006, 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Self-sacrifice
Certainly it is stated in the Christian bible (and can be found as well in the holy books of many other religions) that "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

I think this kind of self-sacrifice moves all humans in a deep way at the core level of our collective consciousness. The historic figure of Jesus has inspired and awed many in this way. No matter where we live in this world, if there is a measure of freedom, we can bet that someone has sacrificed all to give it to us. I am so thankful for the solders of the free world, past and present, who have given their last full measure for our freedom.

Now, how off topic am I!!! Oh boy......
Author:  Earendil Light [ July 25th, 2006, 7:15 am ]
Post subject: 
much has been said about Christian meanings and allegories of LOTR. AlthoughTolkien kept saying that his purpuose had nothing related to religion or politics, I think that everyone can see something religious in the story. It is not only related to Christian religion, but I think that there is something holy and universal running the whole trilogy. The values of friendship, loyalty, sacrifice, the presence of evil and good, the death and the light, Gandalf's speeches. Everyone can find something we should apply to our lives
Author:  celebel [ July 25th, 2006, 11:04 am ]
Post subject: 
It's true,but where was his honor when he was live?
Author:  Turwaithiel Rochben [ July 25th, 2006, 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Boromir may have been tempted and tortured by the ring while he was alive and tried to kill Frodo, but in his dieing moments he told Aragorn that he did indeed try and take the ring from Frodo and asked for forgiveness...but admitting his failure is honor, i think and Boromir was alive but dieing at that moment, so...
Author:  Larael [ August 5th, 2006, 11:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
My interest in this thread has been growing for awhile and I've wanted to post, and add something to the wonderful statements here, but I feel stupid because I can't come up with anything to say. It seems like everything I want to say has already been said, or I just can't put in to words [how often that happens].
Anyway, enough of my rambling, I'd just like to say that I really like the threads you make, Sinbearer, they really make me think. :)

Please continue the discussion...
Author:  Sinbearer [ August 22nd, 2006, 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Too much?
I have been thinking about Boromir’s pride again. There are two words for pride in Spanish, Orgullo and Soberbia. Orgullo describes the warm feeling of pride that makes you feel special and good about something in which you have put a lot of effort and love. This is being proud of something that brings good to others, like our countries heritage, our children’s accomplishments. This is good pride.

On the other hand is Soberbia, a self-righteous pride that dominates humility. It is really an arrogance that breeds feelings of superiority. It makes us more judgemental and less forgiving, patient and trusting of others. We also lose a sense of the value of others. This superiority is really where the problem lies with pride.

I think it is fairly easy to see that Boromir had some of both types of pride in his life. But I can certainly see how even an Orgulla pride could have pressed him toward gaining possession of the ring.

Doesn’t it seem that many times it is the good things in life that snare us—blindside us. Can good motives or good points of character also move us to do bad things? If this is true, what could protect Boromir (or us for that matter) from doing the wrong thing out of good motives.?

I believe Boromir did sacrifice his self-righteous superiority for honor but are we asking too much of him to sacrifice good pride also to gain honor?
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