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PostPosted: August 22nd, 2006, 11:14 am 
Vala
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I have little to say that has not been said already, but I am going to put in my two cents.
Boromir's pride,weakness, and honor all appear to me to be linked. part of his weakness was his pride. It was his pride in his people, in his city, and in his strength and skill as a warrior that brought forth his weakness: his giving in to the temptation of the ring. The pride also forbids his character from stepping down to follow Aragorn. However, it is as you all said. He died with honor. He died trying to remedy the mistakes that his pride led him to make. The first mistake being trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He remedied this by admitting in the end that he had tried to take it, and by fighting against the Uruks, allowing Frodo to escape. The second mistake of being too prideful to accept Aragorn as a leader, were remedied with his last words, as Sinbearer said. I think that is why Boromir could die in perfect peace. He had made up for the things he did wrong. I think that's something everyone's afraid of.Not being able to fix the things they did wrong before they die, before it's too late. Boromir is an example of sin, of giving into temptation, but he is also an example of repentance, of changes of heart, of being able to be forgiven.

I do believe that Boromir had both kinds of pride, and he did sacrifice the one, the bad pride in the end. His good pride, I think he lost for a moment, when he thinks he has failed, but Aragorn restores that pride when he assures him that he has not failed. Thus Boromir is able to die in peace.

To Sinbearer, I will only add further that I love what you said earlier about honor being more about how one lives than how one dies. It's one of those great truths of life I think. There are a lot of those burried in Tolkien's works. You just have to go delving for them.
Also, I've missed you philosophic presence around the forums. It's nice to have someone who looks at the deeper meanings in things, and who can actually apply them to life today. You make a lot of people, including me, think about how there's more to life (and Tolkien) than just the surface. Thank you for that.
~T.T


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PostPosted: August 23rd, 2006, 2:47 pm 
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I, too, want to welcome you back Sinbearer.
I like how this thread continues and evolves around the topic, but I will need to read through the newest posts again before replying. Please go on.

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 Post subject: It's great!
PostPosted: September 1st, 2006, 2:11 am 
Gondorian
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Tinuviel's Tears wrote:
There are a lot of those burried in Tolkien's works. You just have to go delving for them...It's nice to have someone who looks at the deeper meanings in things, and who can actually apply them to life today. You make a lot of people, including me, think about how there's more to life (and Tolkien) than just the surface. Thank you for that.
~T.T


Thank you for those kind words. Tolkien's stories run so deep. They are a constant delight to me. It makes me want to write a book or something.....I just totally love talking about it. It's great!

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PostPosted: September 1st, 2006, 3:36 pm 
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You're welcome. I only say them because they are the truth.
You're right. Tolkien's stories do run deep. they have a way of getting in right next to your heart and stirring up the emotions they find there. I find some of my innermost feelings and thoughts touched by what I read in Tolkien.
I definitely love writing, and Tolkien is my favorite writer, so he's definitely inspiring to me. I may even say he is one of my heros.
Yes, it's wonderful to talk about Tolkien. It makes you realize things that maybe you didn't realize about it before. It's great, like you said!


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PostPosted: September 9th, 2006, 11:47 am 
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Good topic. I believe Boromir's pride was a huge obstacle that prevented him from wanting to be firend's with Gorn, plus his infatuation with the ring... a good example, I think a famous example of how prideful this guy is,is @ the council of Elrond and Boromir tells Aragorn "Gondor has no king and Gonder needs no king."

But if you watch the movie more closely, you see that Boromir is losing that pride and becoming a little bit of humbler person. I think this happened in Lothlorien....

You also get understanding of why he has a lot of pride the main reason, his love for Gonder and his dream of having it restored to the old days.

There's my two sense.

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 Post subject: Pride and honor....
PostPosted: September 15th, 2006, 1:41 am 
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Lady Raine of the Rangers wrote:
But if you watch the movie more closely, you see that Boromir is losing that pride and becoming a little bit of humbler person. I think this happened in Lothlorien....


I think you are right Lady Raine—a lot happened to Boromir at Lothlorien. That is a keen observation that could bear much more thought! A lot happened to all of them there.


I guess I still have more to say about honor and pride.

Honor is so subjective in our world. What is honorable to one is just common sense to another, and reprehensible to a third. Certainly the definition of honor in the west is much different than in the alleged “hot-blooded” Mediterranean cultures or the Japanese codes of honor. Honor is a cultural perspective and each culture has it’s own definitions of it. Perhaps in the west we misunderstand what we would consider the more brutal cultures, where honor looks to us frightfully close to revenge.

But the question this brings to my mind is, “Is valor, death or self-sacrifice at the root of honor? Do they always bring it?” What about the Japanese kamakazees? What about the invading barbarians throwing themselves on spears? What about Islamic radicals who sacrifice themselves?

I think there are things that we in the west could learn from other cultures about honor but I have been wondering—is there a universal perspective on it—a universal truth?
I believe there is. An ancient proverb says, “Pride goeth before a fall.” I think the inverse of that is also true. Humility goes before a rise. In his proverbs, the wise king Solomon of biblical fame concurred, “A man's pride will bring him low but a humble spirit will obtain honor. Before honor comes humility.”

The most honorable person I've ever known is my mom. The kind of honor that radiates from her comes from virtuous conduct and personal integrity. I was looking at the Four Virtues—temperance—prudence—courage—justice—and each one cannot exist in our lives without a humble spirit. So I think Solomon was right. Honor has more to do with a humble life than with heroic deeds. (Though it doesn’t exclude those deeds)

Boromir died in the throws of a very heroic deed but I think what really gave him his honor was the way he humbled himself. Without that humility would he have been able to die such a valiant death? But didn’t he have a powerful example right before his eyes—Aragorn, son of Arathorn? Who could be more humble than he—a servant leader who, though being the Once and Future King, thought it not below him to pledge himself to serving and protecting the least of those in Middle Earth.

If we are to become truly honorable people we must have humble spirits and the sacrifice of our pride is at the core of what we must do.


"We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst." — C. S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

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Last edited by Sinbearer on September 15th, 2006, 2:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: September 15th, 2006, 1:56 am 
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Sinbearer, dying of Boromir was not a part of him being honorable. It is his will what kept him his honor. Dying is just the pride of place he gained at the end for keeping his honour.

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 Post subject: Pride of place...
PostPosted: September 15th, 2006, 2:17 am 
Gondorian
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Captain Faramir wrote:
...Dying is just the pride of place he gained at the end for keeping his honour.


I like the way you put that!

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 Post subject: Yes
PostPosted: September 26th, 2006, 12:29 pm 
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I believe that what you are stating about the sacrafice is very true. i though that was such a moving scene, the fact the Boromir finally realises that the ring is the one that led to his fate. I believe that Boromir in fact became aware of the fact the ring has a will of it's own and that the corruption caused by the ring is too great for a man to resist which is why he attempted to take the ring from Frodo, and why Aragorn had to let Frodo continue the journey to Mordor alone. Boromir realised that although the ring had led to this moment, he should not go without reedeming his actions and pledging the alligence to Aragorn that he was previously unable to because the thoughts of power had corrupted him so much. I really liked the way PJ demonstrated this in the movie, it was acted perfectly and it was very moving.

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PostPosted: October 7th, 2006, 5:22 pm 
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Turwaithiel Lhûgdagnir wrote:
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Boromir’s father didn't understand the true nature of honor and valor. Honor is not just about how one dies but more about how one lives.


That is one of the most unspoken yet oh so true things I have ever heard anone say, Sinbearer. Thank you for showing the true meaning of life in honor. You have showned me that...thanks a lot.


Eloquent thoughts throughout this post. Let me throw in a thought or two...

Boromir was Denethor's favored son. Why? Because they (Boromir and Denethor) were opposites. Denethor would suffer no one to challenge his decisions and would never have followed anyone's advice, not even Elrond's. Boromir (and please don't verbally jump on me, because Boromir was a great and noble man) was not an independent thinker. He needed to be given a goal or task, and he would do his utmost to fulfill it. Denethor favored him because Boromir would follow Denethor's orders without question (and in truth probably not even question the rightness of his orders even to himself).

Faramir, on the other hand, was very much like Denethor. He is a true son of Numenor, and a scholar (actually educated by Gandalf), and follows what he knows to be right, even though it goes against his father's wishes. Forfeits his life to let Frodo and Sam go. He questions Denethor's orders and philosophies and in the end shows himself to be the better son.

That to me is sacrificing pride for honor. Boromir did it well, but Faramir did it best.

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 Post subject: A thrill....
PostPosted: October 7th, 2006, 6:51 pm 
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Wow! I love what you just said Dumanyu! I have been thinking a quite a bit about Faramir because of a conversation with a friend and have been preparing to say something very close to your words here. You really nailed it though! As your words flowed through me, my heart thrilled with the truth of them and again with the depth, revelation and beauty of this story. You say it better than I could.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: October 8th, 2006, 12:32 am 
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Thank you for your eloquent praise. I've often thought Faramir's strength and sacrifice are overlooked.

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PostPosted: October 28th, 2006, 1:03 am 
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What I'm going to say here has probably been already said and won't be quite as good as what most of you had said.
Personally, I think that Boromir is a great character and would be a good role model for a few reasons. The first being that he wants to do his father's will. Secondly, he tries to help his father understand his younger brother and help his brother get praise from their father. There's also the fact that even though the ring begins to take Boromir, Boromir sees what is happening after Frodo leaves and sort of repents. He's still loyal, even to the death.

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 Post subject: Boromir smiled....
PostPosted: February 1st, 2007, 3:14 am 
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The Nightingale wrote:
...there's also the fact that even though the ring begins to take Boromir, Boromir sees what is happening after Frodo leaves and sort of repents. He's still loyal, even to the death.


That is why I love that one little short line so much. "Boromir smiled."
That says a lot. Unrepentant men don't smile as they die. Traitors don't leave the world in peace. Unrepentant traitors do things a little more like Judas after he betrayed Jesus. They hang themselves in agony of mind.

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