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Do you think there was:
Too much of Arwen 49%  49%  [ 22 ]
Too little of Arwen 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Just right! ;) 49%  49%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 45
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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: December 11th, 2014, 4:42 am 
Elf
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I think that there wasn't too much Arwen, but it was kinda odd that her role in the movie was so much bigger than it was in the books.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: March 8th, 2015, 7:48 pm 
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Personally I think Glorfindel could have been added in an acceptable fashion. Liv tyler... yes I do not prefer her as Arwen but that is just me. :P


I do understand though, that in the movie version, Arwen was a little more of an important roll.

I think they could have just done a little less.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: March 9th, 2015, 4:14 am 
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I missed Glorfindel as well, but I understand why Arwen was given a bigger role in the movie. I don't think it was to much. But I do think she shouldn't have considered leaving Middle Earth. In the books there was no doubt between her and Aragorn.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: March 9th, 2015, 10:25 am 
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I don't think there was too much Arwen in the films, what I don't like is the way Peter Jackson chose to inject her rather, in her opening scene. Making a bigger deal of Arwen in a film makes enough sense given Aragorn's relationship, and given that Arwen can be used to illustrate the Elven perspective (she is technically half-elven but that doesn't matter much here, especially in the films).

That said, there are other ways to inject her into the film, and you (a director) don't have to wait for the actual scene in the books.

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And about the Ford of Bruinen scene, maybe PJ thought it would be too much for the audience to digest if another character is to be introduced, especially since Glorfindel kinda had a very complicated past... It would be hard to explain how he could just "scare off" the Nazgul by his presence.


Peter Jackson did explain that introducing Glorfindel here, and then introducing Arwen fairly soon after, was arguably too many introductions at this point, especially since Glorfindel essentially vanishes from the tale.

If so, in my opinion we don't really need to introduce Glorfindel as a "character" however. I say keep him off screen for the most part, or seen from a distance, and begin the escape quickly after the revelation that his horse is not that of a Black Rider's -- this could be a tense moment in the films, hearing hoofbeats at first without realizing (right away) that the jingle of the bells means no Black Rider.

And you the director don't have to go into Glorfindel's past at all, especially his past in Gondolin, which even the books don't go into (he is an Elf-lord from Oversea in the books, no mention of his death escaping Gondolin)! Nor do you have to explain why he scares away any Black Riders, if he doesn't.

If I recall correctly, in the films we don't see any of the Company (that was left behind) scaring the riders into the Bruinen. I say play it the same way, except that Frodo is alone on Asfaloth, and the river mysteriously rises to save him. Some might say that this would take too much explanation later, but I don't see why: a single sentence from Gandalf about it being Elrond's doing, with a humourous wink to his watery horses, should work fine in a film.

People do speak in films after all ;-)

We can just use the time it took for Arwen to recite her "Bruinen spell" given that she will not be there to say it!


What about Arwen? I say introduce her earlier in the film (than she was), using the Appendices. On the long journey from Bree to Imladris Aragorn has a flashback to their first meeting (since he knows he is trying to get to Rivendell where he will hopefully see her again). This gives us an introduction, based on the book. This also takes "real time" in the theaters -- that is, the journey from Bree to Imladris is long in the book, but you don't want ten minutes of showing Aragorn and the hobbits plodding along in the wild... you just want some of that to suggest a long journey...

... and with a flashback what you get is: plodding along -- ten real minutes of flashback -- back to company still plodding along in another location. In my opinion this can make the journey seem longer if real time goes by for the audience, and the company has not reached their goal. But in that real time you show something new to keep viewer interest, and introduce a character who has an important role to play in the rest of the tale at hand (unlike Glorfindel).



But even if one disagrees that a flashback will help in that particular sense, again I think Glorfindel could have been used but kept in the background. He arrives in the nick of time to provide the horse for Frodo's escape (in my theoretical film, not the book of course, where he spends some time with the Company before sending off Frodo), and before you know it Frodo is off on Asfaloth, and can have his moment defying the Ringwraiths before the flood saves him.

Book readers will know "it's Glorfindel" but with respect to the film he will be little more than the "Elf-scout from the Elf-realm", whose horse saved Frodo. If we keep him minimal (maybe show a brief conversation between "the Elf" and Aragorn out of earshot and from a distance, from the perspective of the hobbits perhaps), the audience should not feel the need to wonder about him as a "character", not much more than "Elf-guard at Lorien's borders" for example...


... keeping in mind that Peter Jackson chose to give Haldir "more to do" later in the story than he does in the books (in any case).

And there are more options to consider, this is just one idea.

Moreover, even if you employ Arwen here, why couldn't she have appeared as Glorfindel did, riding Asfaloth (again, pounding hoofbeats are noted at first, initially putting the company in fear of an approaching Black Rider)...

... instead of the invented (and in my opinion inferior) "surprising the Ranger" scene.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: March 9th, 2015, 10:05 pm 
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Yes, Thenidiël I missed him.

Yeah, that is another thing I have not thought about for a while. I don't know why PJ made her plan to leave... especially seeing as there was no question int he book as you said. I agree that I would have left that the way the book had it. It added nothing to the story really.




Elthir I certainly agree with you on the WAY Arwen was introduced. I have never liked that scene because it screams inconsistency on Aragorn's part. He would be dead by now if he was that careless.

I KNOW she is an elf (Had the discussion in the past) but doesn't matter. Aragorn was half elf and an extremely skilled and practiced ranger. Not only that, given the situation he WOULD have been on guard. It just doesn't fit his character set.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: August 14th, 2015, 2:03 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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I would answer 'Too Little' if the actress was someone else.
I would answer 'Too Much' if Liv is Arwen.

So... I vote 'Too Much'.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 16th, 2015, 11:02 pm 
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Lol. Well, I don't dissagree that they should have got a different actress. I never liked Liv Tyler.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 20th, 2015, 5:58 pm 
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I think their motivation in picking Liv was to find the prettiest person possible with dark hair, and as far as that goes, Liv is a pretty good choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 20th, 2015, 6:38 pm 
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Well she is petite, has a slender face and that fits well for elves. Honestly I don't think she is the pretiest choice but her features do fit for an elf.

Honestly I can stand her in LOTR even though I don't like her as an actress. I think it would have been better to pick another acctress but it doesn't damage the movie in my eyes that they picked her. It is more of a personal preferance thing for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 21st, 2015, 3:04 pm 
Gondorian
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I wouldn't think hair colour itself would matter that much with respect to choosing female actors... I mean, with dyes and wigs.

Anyway before some of you folks might have been born, I used to imagine the then younger (well who wasn't) Joyce Penelope Wilhelmina Frankenberg as playing Arwen.

But it was not to be. Some might know her by a different name :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 21st, 2015, 6:00 pm 
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This is true hair collor is quite changeable these days.

Hm... Would have never considered her as an option. If I had not seen her in Dr. Quin, Medecine Woman it would seem much more logical to me but it's just hard to get that character out of my head. Lol

I really never had an acctress in mind... Just someone who has a slender frame and face and looks elvish. I think Galadriel looks very elvish, though she is by no means exceptionally beautiful in my opinion. But that type of body build and face frame O think works well.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 22nd, 2015, 6:38 am 
Gondorian
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Yes I was considering her well before Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman came out in the 1990s. For example, in the 1970s Seymour played Solitaire in the James Bond film Live and Let Die, although she had had earlier roles.

Not that you didn't know that.

Anyway that was when I was hoping for a film in the later 1970s or early 1980s :-D


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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: October 22nd, 2015, 12:29 pm 
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Yeah, I had heard that there were possabilities of eRlier films that never went past the Rancon and Bass cartoons (sp?)

I do wonder what they would have been like.

I never did follow specific actresses or actors in their movies much so while I know she played other rolls I could not have told you what rolls they all were.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: April 16th, 2017, 3:26 am 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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An actor I think would make a beautiful Arwen is Ksenia Solo!

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And I get what you are saying Elthir! Jane would have made a beautiful Arwen in her day!

As for there being 'too much Arwen' in The Two Towers... not really as far as these movies go. The screen time of her in TTT was fine with the dream sequences. Now the whole Fellowship sequence starting with 'sneaking' up on Aragorn and the Glorfindel ride was rubbish.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: April 16th, 2017, 10:49 am 
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Well, the small, unimaginative minds of parts of the movie industry's powers-that-be seem to have a desperate need for neat pigeon-holing. A need to tick boxes on a rather limited inventory list, with the misguided and arrogant assumption that they know that this is what the movie-going peons want (this part might fit better in the Rant Thread, but I can resist the urge to pigeon-hole occasionally :whistle: ).

So, you need some sort of love-interest in a movie. In LoTR, this is quite obviously Arwen and Aragorn. It is a reprise of the story in the Sil closest to JRRT's heart, Lúthien and Beren, where Lúthien plays a massive and decisive role. Impossible to do in LoTR, leaving the movie PTB pinheads howling for more screen presence for Arwen (there was quite a bit on the topic in the EEs). As I posted in a different thread, one could expand the history of Arwen and Aragorn in a sort of extensive prologue in some future movie. But in the actual progress of the quest, she stayed in Rivendell until she moved to Minas Tirith permanently. So more forced presence than makes sense to me, never mind the alterations to the story necessary for this - yes.

I remember one suggestion somewhere to have Arwen, together with her brothers Elladan and Elrohir, somehow showing up at Helm's Deep (or more generally in Rohan?), and creating a jealousy triangle Éowyn - Aragorn - Arwen. Here my comment:

:explode:

Like the (only implied?) Kíli - Tauriel - Legolas bit??? Kíli - Tauriel was again driven by the PTB pinhead dogma of the need for a love interest (which is totally absent from The Hobbit the book). Tauriel does double duty in also fulfilling another dogma that ya need a strong female character. But since TH the movie trilogy is to my mind a fanfic that can be enjoyed as such, resemblance to sources inside or outside the book proper is nice but does not nearly provide fodder for a trilogy (That expansion from Guillermo del Toro's vision to PJ's is an entirely different matter).

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 Post subject: Re: Too much of Arwen?
PostPosted: April 16th, 2017, 8:03 pm 
Dunedain Ranger of Arnor
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:lol:

Being I think that
ALL the PJ Boyens screenplays are just a high budget fanfic (not just The Hobbit franchise),
If the movie is going to be crap, why not make it good crap instead of crappy crap? I wrote a fanfic screenplay I think is better,
yet it too makes you
:explode:

:lol: I was having fun with the screenplay since the "standard" had been set by PJ Boyens & Co. :lol:

I guess the challenge is to write a screenplay that reflects the books as close as possible. :yes: What tweaks/changes would you make?


Getting sort of back to the topic... well the Arwen topic but in the wrong forum....

I think there was just the right amount of Arwen in Return of the King (the coronation).
:happy:

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