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PostPosted: July 7th, 2005, 1:19 pm 
Gondorian
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Wow Gil-Galad - you're brave to come on a thread where Faramir-fiends lurk and call him stupid! - I salute you. ;)

To us in the modern world Faramir's actions do come across as incredibly stupid. What on earth possessed him to go riding back to Osgiliath with a woefully inadequate force to try and retake the city, when he knew full well that it had been over-run? The reason - in my opinion - is that he had no choice in the matter.

This is not a matter of male honour. FaramirFancier is right - I am thinking insubordination, but also much more than that.

In Gondor, Tolkien did not create a modern day democratic society. Gondor is based upon Medievel Europe where the word of the ruler was law. We might think that Faramir should turn round and tell his father to push off, before going and planning a better defence strategy - particularly as we know Denethor is, indeed, under the influence of what Sauron has been feeding him through the Palantir. But that is because most of us are lucky enough to live in a world where we can remove a ruler who is not fit to rule (even today some are not so lucky).

For Faramir, this not an option. To refuse his father's orders would be tantamount to treason. Just because he is related to the Steward does not protect him from that (It didn't protect the princess who became Elizabeth I from being imprisoned by her sister, Queen Mary Tudor, for treason - all that saved her from execution was lack of proof). If Faramir refuses to carry out his orders, Denethor is quite likely to have him arrested on the spot. Even in 21st century Britain, the crime of treason still carries the death penalty.

Even in Tolkien's day a soldier did not disobey orders (he would be shot at dawn if he did!). If the commander ordered his men to walk calmly into the path of machine gun fire - they would do it. Tolkien would have seen this first hand while fighting in the first world war, so it would have been completely unrealistic to him for Faramir to have ignored his father.

While I wouldn't discount Faramir's despair as a motivating factor in his actions - I don't think it is fair to dismiss what he did as stupid.

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PostPosted: July 7th, 2005, 2:07 pm 
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Mablung wrote:

Even in Tolkien's day a soldier did not disobey orders (he would be shot at dawn if he did!). If the commander ordered his men to walk calmly into the path of machine gun fire - they would do it. Tolkien would have seen this first hand while fighting in the first world war, so it would have been completely unrealistic to him for Faramir to have ignored his father.

While I wouldn't discount Faramir's despair as a motivating factor in his actions - I don't think it is fair to dismiss what he did as stupid.


Well, I'm living in a country where every second soldier became a mass-murderer 60 years ago because they thought about this as you do. Some things are worth dying for. A soldier may be a soldier, but he is still a man with responsibilities and a conscience. I'm living in a country where a few soldiers knew that Hitler was an idiot, but they didn't want to betray their country and so they hesitated until it was too late!!! This makes them partly responsible for millions of victims.

It is also very easy to be a soldier, do as you are told and that's it. And they can always say that they stood up for their country/people and that they didn't betray anyone. But they betrayed themselves and everything humanity should be.

Faramir hat two choices, get out, do as you are told and get yourself killed, or stay, do what you think is best and perhaps get yourself killed too. It would be wise to chose the second one. He could have changed something in Minas Tirith. He could have been the leader of his people. But he didn't. Perhaps he wasn't stupid, perhaps he was just weak.

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PostPosted: July 7th, 2005, 3:09 pm 
Gondorian
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I am really sorry if I have offended you Gil-Galad I did not intend too and I apologise. I can assure you that I do not believe that a soldier can or should commit any atrocity as long as he can claim that he was only following orders.

I completely agree that, to our eyes, what Faramir does appears to be irresponsible and foolish, possibly even weak. I am also not trying to say that attempting to retake Osgiliath is necessarily the right thing for Faramir to do - as he could indeed have been better spent in aiding the defence of Minas Tirith itself - indeed Gandalf himself points this out to him as he is leaving.

It is just that I did not really agree with some of the reasons previously given as to what made Faramir lead the charge. For example, I do not think that he was trying to win his father's love, or end his life. I believe that, in the time that the story is set, Faramir would not have had the choice of refusing his father's order as I believe Denethor would have had him arrested as a traitor to Gondor if he had.

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PostPosted: July 8th, 2005, 6:10 am 
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I understand your side, Mablung and also yours Gil-galad.


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PostPosted: July 9th, 2005, 5:00 am 
Gondorian
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Thank you fbc - I don't disagree at all with the points that Gil-Galad was making, it was just that I think we were debating different points. I was referring to what made Faramir lead the charge, whereas Gil-Galad was discussing whether he he was right to do what he did. I just didn't realise it at the time.

During the first world war, many soldiers lost their lives because they climbed out of their trenches, and walked resolutely straight into the path of enemy machine guns. They knew they would be mown down, but were commanded to attack in that fashion and so did as they were ordered. That is how I imagine the position that Faramir was in.

Just out of interest - do you think that Faramir had any other motive to lead the charge? Like, out of loyalty or despair?

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PostPosted: July 9th, 2005, 6:58 am 
Hobbit
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:confuzzled: *Gil-Galadisfeelingashamedforheroutburst* *Gil-Galadthinksshehastocontrolhertemperbetter* :confused:

Perhaps Faramir didn't really care anymore. His father rejected him again and again. His brother dead. His people dead in the next days. He had no hope anymore. Perhaps he just wanted to go with a "BANG"... You know what I mean?

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between the mountains and the sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen,
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the countless stars of heaven's field
were mirrored in his silver shield.

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PostPosted: July 10th, 2005, 7:15 am 
Gondorian
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You mean like.......kick those orcs ass?!

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PostPosted: July 10th, 2005, 1:22 pm 
Gondorian
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:blush: Mablungwillreadpostsmorecarefullynexttime :bye2:

Gil-Galad wrote:
Perhaps he just wanted to go with a "BANG"... You know what I mean?


Yes, like - If I'm gonna go down, I'll take as many of them with me as I can?

Thats a good point. Perhaps he had indeed reached a stage of 'What's the point?' by then - Boromir's dead, Denethor seems to hate him, and they'll all probably be dead in a few days anyway.

How about this one -

I read somewhere (perhaps on another forum) that someone said that they thought he did it to buy a bit more time for the Rohirrim to arrive. Not sure about that one though, sounds a bit risky to me! :confused:

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PostPosted: July 15th, 2005, 8:43 am 
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Gil-Galad wrote:
Perhaps he just wanted to go with a "BANG"... You know what I mean?


well no offence, but i don't think getting shot two times in the torso and get dragged from osgilath to minas tirith by a horse is "BANG" but i know wut u mean, gil-galad.

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PostPosted: September 18th, 2005, 12:30 pm 
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The way I've always looked at is like Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg. The commanding Generals (Longstreet & Pickett) knew that there was no possible way for the attack to succeed. The men were marching a mile over open fields with the enemy entrenched on the high ground, their cannons looking down with a clear shot the entire time. Pickett and Longstreet fought against the attack as much as possible, but in the end, Lee's order was to attack and they couldn't do anything about it.
Faramir and his men rode over a mile to Osgiliath. He and Gandalf knew it would fail, but there was nothing they could do about it. Denethor's order was to attack. The enemy had the protection of Osgiliath's walls, and their arrows had a clear shot the entire time.
It kind of goes back to what Mablung said about obeying the superior or facing the concequences of insubordination.

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PostPosted: October 9th, 2005, 11:48 pm 
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Faramir could have also gone out because of the way people in Middle-earth viewed death. They probably had a mindset very similar to the Germanics and Anglo-Saxons of the medieval days. A warrior was not to fear death at all, or he was considered a coward. Therefore, during those days, we find men going off on seemingly rash and very stupid missions. To our modern minds, they seem very foolish, but Faramir was doing a very brave and honourable thing to the people of his culture. To give his life for Minas Tirith was considered an honour. Also, he probably figured if it was his time to die in battle, then he would accept it. If it wasn't his time, then he would survive. In the end, we find that it wasn't his fate to die, and he got out alive. It's rather a fatalistic view of life that was common also in the medieval period.


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PostPosted: November 1st, 2005, 1:02 am 
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Faramir is cool, and I don't think it's a suicide mission. I think it's because of one reason. Faramir's biggest will is to have his father love him, and the best thing he could do to get his fathers love was to follow his orders, this wasn't Faramir's fault and it was stupid Denethor's own fault that he jumped off Minas Tirith on fire and Faramir managed to stay alive.

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PostPosted: November 5th, 2005, 11:28 pm 
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Ok, may I bring another confusing story into this conversation. Ok, lets look at Gone with the wind. An amazing story for thsoe who havnt reaqd it or seen the movie. Lets look at the person of Rhett Butler. He joined the military in the last 8 months of the war. TGO he knew the confederacy(SP) had lost a lonmg time before. he knew it was hopeless. But he still knew that he should fight. And he did. Faramir also knew it was hopeless. BUT he still had a duty to his country. AND to his father. I think he saw it as a win win situation. He saw it like. Ok I will either win, or die. If I win maybe my dad will love me. If I die, who cares.

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PostPosted: November 6th, 2005, 5:30 am 
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Good Point

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PostPosted: November 22nd, 2005, 12:26 am 
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Hmmmm, this has me thinking.
I hope none of you know what this feels like, I know I sure don't, but what if your father truly didn't care for you? What if your older sibling got all the praise, all the love? Your father never gave you a second thought, or bothered to give you a little love. He never physically harmed you, and never punished you unjustly, but it was just like you didn't exist to him? Would you strive to get his love? To prove that you are worthy of him? His mother ids dead, and even though he is know the only son, he gets nothing. I can't help but feel sorry for him. EH must have seen this as a last desperate attempt to earn his father's love.

Also, in LotR, I remember Theoden saying somthing along the lines of, "This may be the end, but let it be such an end that people will remeber us" That might be what Faramir is thinking. Vikings considered a death in battle the best way to die. Faramir just may have wanted to be remembered as someone who tried valiently, against all odds, even if he failed.


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PostPosted: November 26th, 2005, 2:48 pm 
Maia
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what I think is that he was sort of fed up with everything--not angry, but to a point of resignation. His Dad wouldn't love him, no matter what, and everyone was going to die int he war! Maybe if he died, his Dad would remember him fondly, and if he died for his City, then he could be a hero. I pretty much agree with Nauriel Rochnur, and others about not having a choice. When you mix all the points together it makes a good argument to do what he did.

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