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| Faramir and Suicide mission? http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1041 |
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| Author: | Guest [ June 23rd, 2005, 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Faramir and Suicide mission? |
I and my dad have discussed this before. ( Draw this from the movie guys. ) When Faramir leads his men on the taking-back of the river, I think that counts as a Suicide Mission. Not only that. I think Faramir is well aware of that. Gandalf said something similer. " Do not let your father's will turn to madness! " Therefore, they both know it's hopeless to try and take it back. They don't have the men, or the weapons. Why would Faramir go THAT far to please his father? I know he would be willing to risk his life, but the lifes of other men? Those men could have been valuble during the Battle of Pelenor! |
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| Author: | Araturiel [ June 23rd, 2005, 11:45 am ] |
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I think he knows that something really bad is going to happen (like the Battle of Pelennor) and there's just no point in trying anymore. I think he figures that he and/or his men are going to be killed anyway. He may also have a false hope that fighting for Osgiliath will somehow help protect Minas Tirith. |
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| Author: | Gwenneth [ June 25th, 2005, 1:23 pm ] |
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hmm, interesting...i never really thought of it that way. i think it was mostly out of wanting to please his father and do what he can in Boromir's "stead" - maybe also proving that he isn't some fearful captain like his father thinks he is. again, interesting...it certainly is something to think about.... 
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| Author: | Larael [ June 25th, 2005, 1:35 pm ] |
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Yes I agree. Actually i never thought of it that way. |
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| Author: | eowynshieldmaiden [ June 25th, 2005, 3:43 pm ] |
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I don't think it was a suicide mission, because to want to commit suicide, u have to want to die. I don't believe Faramir wants to die, I think he just wants to earn his father's respect and love. |
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| Author: | SpanishEvenstar [ June 25th, 2005, 11:01 pm ] |
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Hm...that's an interesting thought... I don't know if I'd consider it a "suicide mission", but I do think that it did enter Faramir's mind that he could possibly never make it back to Minas Tirith alive. I think that by that point he was willing to do anything and everything within his power to gain the respect and love of his father, which he couldn't get otherwise, as eowynshieldmaiden has said.  He thought that if he could regain Osgiliath then Denethor, would respect him and love him. And if he died, then his father would be without an heir, and all would be over, and maybe Denethor would then regret everything he'd said to his son.
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| Author: | goldelf [ June 27th, 2005, 5:39 am ] |
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That is probably the saddest part of the movie for me.With Denethor saying 'hey son i dont like you! go die!'and then theres Faramir and his men riding away to their deaths. 
i dunno about calling it a suicide mission though.i mean Faramir didnt exactly want to go die but i think he knew that there was no way they could reclaim Osgiliath. 
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| Author: | Gwenneth [ June 27th, 2005, 1:54 pm ] |
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eowynshieldmaiden wrote: I don't think it was a suicide mission, because to want to commit suicide, u have to want to die. I don't believe Faramir wants to die, I think he just wants to earn his father's respect and love.
yeah, that's so true. |
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| Author: | Larael [ June 29th, 2005, 9:33 pm ] |
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Maybe Faramir did want to die, so that a)he wouldn't have to deal with Denethor anymore and b) because Denethor told him he wished for Boromir and his life to switch, Boromir be alive and Faramir dead. Just a thought........
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| Author: | Tirelen [ June 30th, 2005, 4:57 am ] |
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The problem with Denethor and his sons is that they are all on the edge of despair- in the film, Boromir himself says that people are beginning to lose faith in the victory of good over evil, and Boromir himself is driven by desperation to help his city. I believe this despair is what drove Denethor mad in the end, and also part of what lead Faramir to go out on the hopeless cavalry ride across the Pelennor Fields. But more than anything, Faramir has always been put down as less than his brother, and he is desperate to gain his father's approval. It is a suicide mission and he knows it, but he would do anything to gain the approval of his father- who he does love, despite Denethor's harshness. |
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| Author: | fbc [ July 1st, 2005, 10:50 am ] |
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I thought it didn't make Faramir look good. He looked unwise enough to follow his father's orders, who was clearly crazy. |
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| Author: | Mablung [ July 1st, 2005, 12:02 pm ] |
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I think it all depends on how you term 'suicide mission', since it is often subtituted for a mission where the outcome is hopeless. To me, the charge on Osgiliath was a suicide mission, not because Faramir wanted to kill himself, but because he knew full well that the situation was hopeless. I don't think that Faramir was doing this in a misguided attempt to earn his father's love. After all, the exchange over Boromir just after Denethor orders the charge makes it crystal clear that he is never going to get that. To me, his biggest problem is that he is acting on the command of the Steward, who is not only his father, but also his supreme commanding officer and ruler. He has ordered that Osgiliath be retaken, Faramir has pointed out that the city is lost, but Denethor does not care - much must be risked in war. Even if Faramir suspects that his father has lost his mind, he has little choice but to comply as his commander has issued an order. We all know that Denethor is two sandwiches short of a picnic, but it is not necessarily obvious to Faramir in the scenes between the two characters. After all, Denethor has always sniped about him, why would it be any different now? To me, as far as Faramir is concerned his Liege Lord has spoken, he will obey, regardless of the hopelessness of the situation. |
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| Author: | fbc [ July 2nd, 2005, 12:53 pm ] |
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That's interesting |
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| Author: | FaramirFancier [ July 5th, 2005, 8:05 pm ] |
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Mablung brings up a good point. Faramir is acting on orders not just from his father but from the Steward...so to refuse could be termed as insubordination...correct? But you also have to consider that Denethor's acting almost under an influence--Sauron put images into Denethor's mind of the Battle of the Pelennor...but only the images that Sauron wanted him to see... He saw the Black Ships but not that they weren't holding Corsairs...so possiblyto refuse Denethor's orders could be excused...since Denethor is off his rocker a bit... Faramir may be thinking that by doing this he's servicing his country and following the orders of one higher up in command than he. It's definately an interesting question. |
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| Author: | Eowyn Arelen [ July 5th, 2005, 9:25 pm ] |
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Faramir left becasue it was his father's will. He is a noble man and the stuard told him to go out and fight, so he did it. His King figure told him to do something, it doesnt matter if its his father or not. He has to do it. He could have stayed but there would have been a punishment. I also think that Faramir sawe it as a way to win his fathers love. If denathor saw how devoted Faramir was to him, maybe he would love him. Unfortunatly it didnt work. Also, how else would he have met Eowyn? |
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| Author: | Gil-Galad [ July 6th, 2005, 1:34 pm ] |
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To make it clear: I think that Faramir was fairly stupid. Going out there letting themselves killed was just ... stupid! I'm not saying that Faramir should have stopped fighting, I'm just saying, that there were much better ways to fight. But it is this thing about men and honour that I'm never going to understand. You know the scene in Troy, where Hector could have had Achilles killed with the bows? When he would have done that, Hector would have survived to continue leading the Trojan army - but no, he had to go out and get himself killed. It's the same with Faramir, he could have stayed, he could have prepared his men and he could have prepared the city for the attack, he could have planned a brilliant strategy. But no, he went out and got himself seriously injured and he became useless for the rest of the war... Just stupid! |
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