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PostPosted: November 20th, 2005, 7:11 am 
Gondorian
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I love the scene in which Denethor agrees with Faramir that he should have died in Boromir's place. It's such a powerful scene that pushes all the emotional buttons that PJ intends - anger at Denethor, sympathy for Faramir and the like. The scene was also played flawlessly by John Noble, David Wenham and Billy Boyd.

It's just, sometimes I wish that it hadn't been written in that way. Perhaps then we wouldn't all hate Denethor so much!

I think that this is the scene, more than any other, that has turned everyone so much against the character (it certainly did for me until I read the book!). Yet it is the biggest example of how the movie character is completely different from the book character. At no time in the book does Denethor ever say to anyone that he wishes Faramir had died. Yes, Faramir does ask Denethor if he wishes the brother's places had been exchanged, but neither of them mentions death. Denethor's only concern is that Faramir would not have brought the ring to him no matter what, while Boromir, had he not died, would. He doesn't wish that either of his sons had died.

I can only assume that the change was made to explain the charge on Osgiliath. It's just a pity that it has also turned Denethor from a rather poor example of fatherhood into such a nasty character.

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PostPosted: January 9th, 2006, 3:34 am 


i actually know denethor...my mates friends father is denethor...i have a picture of him...it is awesome...i think they casted him really well and him being in that role adds so much more to the relationship of faramir boromir and denethor...

A really good actor and a really good man...


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PostPosted: February 5th, 2006, 3:09 pm 
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Denethor is most likely one of the most controversial characters present in Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". However, despite this (or perhaps, to some extent, due to this) he is a figure whom many hold in respect, even among the celebrated figures he is surrounded by in the epic story.

The most complete report of Denethor II, son of Ecthelion II, may be found in the Appendix A of The Return of the King- it's fairly easy to find, and page numbers vary greatly enough between volumes that I won't trouble with narrowing the search further. It also has some fair expression on his two sons, Boromir and Faramir, which is of interest.

Denethor is the one character I felt most displeased on for his portrayal in the movies- the character of the books is described as a far stronger character than the bitter and defeated man we are shown on the screen (this should not be translated, however, as an ill report of John Noble's performance, which was admirable). Mind Gandalf's own explanation of Denethor to Pippin after they have left his audience:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him [...] He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."

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PostPosted: February 5th, 2006, 8:39 pm 
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I sort of think of Denethor in the same way I think of Boromir. A man who is twisted by evil--not evil himself. Boromir and Denethor are similar in many ways (well, not surprising, since they are father and son). They both have a heavy burden for the land of Gondor. They so want to see Gondor's glory restored, that they resort to unfavourable methods to see it done. However, they are not completely the same. Boromir died in peace because he realised the error of his thinking. Denethor never accepted that the King had returned. He was too proud to let his reign go. Denethor died a paranoid, unhappy man, and in the books he never sees Faramir is alive like in the film. So that's where Boromir and Denethor differ in my opinion. Also, I think it would be beneficial to note that Tolkien was a devoted Roman Catholic and the notion of suicide (Denethor's death was a kind of suicide) is quite unfavourable in that tradition from what I've gathered. Perhaps Tolkien was pointing out that while Boromir's death was noble, Denethor's was not. Denethor is not an evil character, but neither is he heroic.


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PostPosted: February 5th, 2006, 11:48 pm 
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Not heroic?

Perhaps... but perhaps that is the strength given to the character of Denethor, the key seperation between his own tragic tale and that of his elder son, so much akin.

Not everyone may be a hero.

I continue to hold Denethor's role in the story of the Lord of the Rings as drastically different than his role in the movies, and the change dismayed me. For, in both the books and the movies, it was made clear that Denethor was not a hero of the same nature as most of the other characters present. However, in the movie this was shown by giving him a role of bitter defeat, insanity, and cowardice. In the books, I was given a very different perception of this man, Steward of Gondor.

It is said in the Appendices of The Lord of the Rings, "When Denethor became Steward (2984) he proved a masterful lord, holding the rule of all things in his own hand. He said little. He listened to counsel, and then followed his own mind. " And in the stories, this is the Denethor we are greeted with, a man of the will to match Gandalf the White or even Sauron in a test of strength, yet also a man who, with a surprising show of respect, takes the service of a young, determined hobbit, even though it should seem no benefit to him.

On numerous occasions Gandalf and Pippin describe this man and his bearing, and, at all times, both are respectful at the least. "Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king." is the hurried description we, along with Pippin, recieve from Gandalf just before we enter his audience. It is only at the end, after the apparently imminent death of his second son, that Denethor seems as one defeated. Even then, though, the books portray his death differently. In the movies, it is a wholly pathetic thing, as at the end he loses resolve, burns, and runs screaming off the pinnacle. In the book, his death is of his own design, his own choosing, and far more terrible to behold- he lays himself burning on the pyre, grasping the palantir, "and it was said that ever after, if any man looked in that Stone, unless he had a great strength of will to turn it to other purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering in flame."

This is Denethor II, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor.

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PostPosted: February 6th, 2006, 1:01 pm 
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Yes, I do agree that the book Denethor is much much more noble than the film Denethor. In the film, you just can't wait for Gandalf to just conk him up the head with his staff. And Denethor's death in the film is just...well...completely not of the spirit of the book. Certainly less effective than his death in the book, grasping the Palantir. But I still think that even in the book, Denethor died in despair, when he had the opportunity to turn his thinking round.
I am still wondering why the film changes Denethor so much. Is it just for dramatic effect? Is it to emphasize something? I'm just wondering what it's trying to emphasize by making Denethor a complete jerk?


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PostPosted: February 8th, 2006, 9:00 pm 
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I find the end of The Pyre of Denethor to be one of the more moving sections of the book, and had rather wished the movie to reflect on this somewhat.

However, I entertain the possibility that there was no "meaning" or direction to Denethor's portrayal in the movies, in the sense that Peter Jackson would be trying to make an point of the character- rather, it seems almost more of simply being another perspective of the Steward of Gondor.

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PostPosted: February 18th, 2006, 3:31 pm 
Gondorian
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I totally agree with the points made by Isildur's Bane about the way that Denethor is portrayed in the books. It is, indeed, a pity that the movie didn't have that same depth.

I think that the biggest problem was lack of time. With so much detail -and so many characters - to cram into such a limited running time, somethings had to give and anything that did not have absolute relevance to moving the story along had to be sacrificed. In fact, I think Elijah Wood said as much in the trailer advertising the EEDVD of RotK.

Denethor is a very complex character, one who was once a great leader, but who has slowly been undermined over the years by the pressures of his position, and the use of the Palantir. The book has an unlimited space in which to portray his decline and eventual fall, and this is done perfectly. You cannot help but be moved by it.

In the movie, with around 20 odd principal characters to juggle, I suppose it is not too surprising that those in the sub-plots were not as well developed as, say, Theoden or Eomer. We are given a glimpse of Denethor's decline in Fellowship when Boromir admits to Aragorn that his father's rule is failing, but other than that there is little opportunity for anyone to explain to the audience why Denethor behaves as he does.

I suspect that, in the need to get the story told, the writers just had to let Denethor get on with it, rather then trying to explain why he does it.

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PostPosted: February 19th, 2006, 1:01 am 
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True.
Being a bookie more than a "movie," I can say I didn't notice Denethor's change as much as you all did.
Then again, I'm prone to fill in the blanks with the book-"lore" I know, so maybe I looked at it differently.
Denethor I never liked book or movie personally, although I like John Noble's performance. I though he was too proud, concieted, and too distrusting of Gandalf, Aragorn, and too skeptical of Pippin. I also think he's too hard on Faramir. (who doesn't?)
A note on Boromir bringing the Ring to Denethor, he wouldn't have. Denethor thinks he would have because he believes Boromir is quote unquote, the "Greatest." Faramir is wiser, and more keen to old Mithrandir, whom daddy doesn't like so much. Therefore, Denethor mistakes Faramir as a loss, and Boromir's death then crippled the man, taking his "support". I think the movie, lacking time, went multiplicative on Boromir's death's effects on old Denethor.

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PostPosted: February 20th, 2006, 3:10 am 
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My feelings about Denethor are rather complex.

So in the movie, i hate him. Maybe this is just because i ADORE Faramir, and that way he treats him is awful. I have the EE versions, and the scene when Boromir wins Osgiliath warms me more to Boromir - he loved his little brother, and makes me hate Denethor even more. But in the books, while i still found him a rather unsavoury (now that;s a good word to describe him, isn't it? Unsavoury . . XD) character, he isn;t as hateful. I mean, you can kinda understand him acting that way - he's mad and he really can't be held responsible for his actions, as mean as he is. He was a strong man, but not strong enough to force the Palantir away from Mordor, where Sauron had it firmly in his grip. i think in the end, it wasn't so much the death of his wife, nor Boromir's death that made him act the way he did, it was the all consuming despair he felt - driven as he was to think that the fall of Men, of Minas Tirith, of Gondor and of Middle Earth was nigh. I mean, such a thought, such a complete lack of hope is enough to drive anyone mad. And added onto that is the grip Sauron undoubtedly had on his mind.

that said, i can;t say i was sad to see him jump off a cliff. XD

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PostPosted: February 27th, 2006, 11:09 pm 
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Denethor is one of my least favorite characters. He isn't a good leader nor a good father. In the book, he had the city evcauated (the men stayed) and he wasn't harsh with Faramir. In the movie, he's very different, he's more cruel to his son, wishing that he had died and Boromir had lived, and dose nothing with the citizens, just sits on his little stool and "mourns" the death of his son.

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PostPosted: March 1st, 2006, 11:02 am 
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Yeah, movie Faramir annoys me - the citizens had no business being in the city still.
Him with Faramir is one of the saddest parts in the movie.

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PostPosted: March 2nd, 2006, 9:44 pm 
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Don't you mean denethor?

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 Post subject: Ultimately responsible....
PostPosted: July 22nd, 2006, 8:07 pm 
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Wow! This thread has plenty of food for thought!!!

It is certainly easy to let your heart be filled with anger at the actions of Denethor, especially if you had a father like him. I have talked to many who do. It is a horrible thing to be rejected by your dad. But as bad as some of Denethor’s deeds are, if we are to judge him we must measure him by the sum total of the things that happened to him in his life. And we must be sure to give him credit for the good he did too. At that point, from a human perspective, we can understand a reason for his poor choices and actions that many times we can empathize with… but certainly can never excuse.

Things happen in our lives for a reason, and no matter whether they are good or evil, they are designed to make us better people. To everything that happens to us we can respond negatively or positively—it is our choice. Who we become is totally up to us. At the end of the day, I believe we are ultimately responsible for our actions no matter what happened in our past.

I just read the biography of CS Lewis and his life was one big series of tragedies. But look at the choices he made despite this—becoming one of the greatest authors and minds of the last century, if not all time. He had every reason to end up like Denethor but he didn’t. He ended up just the opposite…a man of honor, wisdom and character.

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PostPosted: August 9th, 2006, 11:48 am 
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as an actor, he's perfect for the character. but his character i think is really dumb and is going nuts because he tried to burn Faramir alive, plus himself so i think he is absolutely crazy!!

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PostPosted: August 24th, 2006, 7:26 pm 
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It made me cry--seriously <i>cry</i>--when Denethor told Faramir he should have died. That's the only scene that made me cry, so I guess he's pretty good... It may just have been Faramir, though...

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