That is the perfect opposite of Denethor! I'm glad you brought up the fact that it is our choice as to how we react to different circumstances and events in our life. It all depends on how you look at life: half empty or half full. I think in Denethor's case he was probably seeing life as half empty which most likely influenced him to see the negative in the events of his life. This just furthered his decent into complete madness.

I'm also glad you brought up that at one time Denethor saw his life differently. I think many people make the mistake of thinking that Denethor was always his negative, kind of mad self, not realising that he had a different life before the death of his wife, and the entrance of the Palantir into his life. Denethor really was a good man, and a good leader before his world began to crumble.

Ok. I admit it. The first time I watched LOTR and Denethor lit himself on fire, I basically said, "Burn! *then I said a bad word. oops.* Burn!" His character disgusted me. How he could just pass of his son as nothing, even if he wasn't the favorite, was beyond my comprehension. The scene of Pippin's song just contributed to me not liking him, because there was a strong contrast to him sitting there making himself fat and slobbering all over himself, to Faramir, in battle, hopeless and practically seeking death.
I think that PJ meant for us to dislike Denethor, but after thinking about it, it really wasn't fair. It would have been better to have explained about the Palantir and the madness it drove him to. Then maybe, he could have at least been pitied a little. He is a little pitiable. A man without hope. That's always sad. And while, I still can't feel that bad for him, because it was his fault that he made bad choices and had false pride in himself which led to him looking into the Palantir and consequently becoming crazed, I do feel more kindly towards him than I did at first.

I agree. PJ definitely wanted to make the audience feel emotion for Denethor, and it just so happens that that emotion is hatred. I too think he purposefully left many of the things out about Denethors background so that we would be able to hate his character all the more. Sadly, that didn't quite stay true to the books, but it did achieve it's emotional goal.

Yes. It didn't stay true to the books, but I accept the fact that they had to change certain characters and dramatize them so that things that were clear in the book would be as clear on screen. It's just like how PJ made Faramir they way he was. I didn't like it. I thought it was completely unfair to the character of Faramir, but I realized that they needed to do that to help you better understand the power of the Ring. They had to sacrifice some aspects of the characters for the greater good of the film.

When I watched the movie for the first time I didn´t like Denethor-even if he had behaved in a more noble way- because of his outstanding arrogancy. Besides I didn´t regret his death considering that he almost murdered Faramir blinded with grief.
In retrospect I pity him cause his death is tragedic and shows what can become of a once honourful man. It´s out of question that the loss of his son is terrible but instead of coping with it together with Faramir he chose to brood over his grief alone. Therefore his arrogency maybe simply came out of scorn for life.

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-Even the smallest person can change the course of the future-

Here is how I think about it. Everybody in this owrld has problems. No matter how bad your life seems, there is always, always someone who has it worse off than you. The fact that you are grieving does not give you license to be a terrible nasty person, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to murder anyone, especially your own son. In Denethor's case however, it is excusable because he wasn't merely grieving, he was crazy. He had gone completely mad. we're not meant ot like Denethor's character by either Tolkien or PJ, but Tolkien makes us look past Denethor's surface and really dig in to his character so that in the end, we are able to pity him.

i know!!!! heez so messed up!!! how could he be so mean and ignorant to faramir!!! faramir is so cool!!!! denethor jumped off of minas tirith for goodness sake!!! and tried to burn himself and faramir alive!!! talk about crazy!!!!!

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"Minas Tirith. City of kings."
"Of all the inquisitive Hobbits, Peregrin Took, you are the worst."

GONDOR ROCKS!!!

RIDER of ROHAN!!!! oaths i have taken! (jan 4, 2008)

yeah definately a touch of the brain fever but Denethor is still awesome
power hungry shrewd man

I don't think of Denethor as "awesome", and I'm not really sure how being power hungry and shrewd makes him so. he may have been a good and admirable man before he lost his mind, but after, though I do pity him, I don't love him. It's kind of like Frodo's relationship with Gollum. He doesn't like Gollum, he detests him as a matter of fact, but he feels pity for him. That's pretty much how I feel about Denethor.

I personally despised this character even though i do understand the madness from the Palantir. But much of the dialouge exchanged between him and Faramir in the movie was taken directly from the book. I do pity him in many ways, but you don't want to use the fact he was somewhat insane as an excuse for his actions to his own son. It seemed he knew exactly what he was doing up until the end. Denethor is sort of a hard character for me to sort my feelings about.
He was living in extremely dark times and losing his son didn't help. But he was rash and had no sense of honor left and he chose to give up and feel sorry for himself. He made choices that were horrible and that's why I pity him.

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Yeah. he is a little wacko..... and i hate how he treated faramir...ugh!!! he was so stupid to try and burn himself and faramir up. and his servants were pretty dumb to do what he said.

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"Minas Tirith. City of kings."
"Of all the inquisitive Hobbits, Peregrin Took, you are the worst."

GONDOR ROCKS!!!

RIDER of ROHAN!!!! oaths i have taken! (jan 4, 2008)

Well, his servants had to do as he said or the penalty would have been death. So really, their fault was cowardice, and caring more for themselves than they did for their Steward or his son. Only Beregond stood up against him because of his love for Faramir. As for Denethor, well, as we said, he was completely deranged, so it's kind of hard to evaluate his actions as "evil", since he wasn't doing it because he was evil, he was doing it because he'd lost his mind.

Personaly I didn't like Denethor. He always put himself and his wants first. That's not a good leader, a good father, or a good man in my opinion.
The way he treated his sons was horrible. He put so much pressure on Boromir that it ended up costing Boromir his life. Then his neglectance, at other times verbal abuse, and favortism between his sons (along with Faramir's willingness or rather to some extent forced following of Denethor's war orders) nearly costed Faramir his life. It wasn't fair to Boromir or Faramir. They never did anything to deserve such aweful treatment from their father.
I saw it as allmost everything bad that happened to Denethor, he brought upon himself. Every action has a reaction. His actions were bad so the reactions were just as bad. Therefore I didn't pitty him in the least.

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I never liked Denethor. but there are good points tah once in his life he must have been great, but i neever liked him, especially what he did to his sons. they didn't deserve any of that at all. i just never liked him. i think he is evil and annoying. but the Palantir did help in makig him go absolutely MAD. but it was his fault for using it. i just don't like him. Out of ALL of the charcters in LotR, including Shelob and the super-evil-side of Gollum, he's my least fav character. i just don't like him at all.

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"Have i gone mad?"
"Yes, i believe you have. But i'll tell you a secret.... all the best people are."

Hannon Le,everyone for the banners!
Married Khamûl on January the 26th, 2007:bones:

I think that's a bit harsh. I can see where you guys are coming from, because i used to feel the same way. But his real sin here is false pride. He wasn't a bad person, he was arrogant, he was unyielding, he played favorites. These are all things that we ourselves are guilty of. Perhaps that's why we dislike the so called "bad" characters in stories. We see our own faults reflected in them, and it disgusts us. Nobody likes to be reminded of their faults. But faults don't make you a bad person, and mistakes don't make you a bad person. No, Denethor's faults were common enough. It's attempting to kill his son that is the real wrong here, and this, as we've already said, was a result of insanity. When you're insane, you have no reasoning behind your actions. You lose the concept of right and wrong. So, really, we can't blame Denethor for being crazy. We can blame him for his false pride, but that's a common fault that many people are guilty of, so we have to be lenient there as well.
By the way, I am so sorry if this makes no sense.

that's ok. i think it makes sense, and it's a great point, thanks! Yeah, i guess it was kinna harsh, i'll have to watch the movie again to see what i think !!!

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"Have i gone mad?"
"Yes, i believe you have. But i'll tell you a secret.... all the best people are."

Hannon Le,everyone for the banners!
Married Khamûl on January the 26th, 2007:bones: