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Denethor
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3088		 Page 4 of 5
Author:  Porteuse de l'anneau [ January 13th, 2007, 11:49 am ]
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"Faramir:You wish now that our places had been exchanged... that I had died and Boromir had lived.
Denethor: Yes.
Denethor: I wish that.
Faramir: Since you are robbed of Boromir... I will do what I can in his stead.
Faramir: If I should return, think better of me, Father.
Denethor: That will depend on the manner of your return. "
I hate denethor, he is nasty with his son Faramir !!!! this scene is sad !!!
Author:  Lady of Taniquetil [ January 21st, 2007, 10:34 pm ]
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and he made Pipipn cry!!! now that has got to be one of the meanest things ever done in the movies!!!!! hehe
Author:  Hanasian [ January 21st, 2007, 10:48 pm ]
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Pippen singing while Faramir and the Knights of Gondor charging into Osgoliath on their suicide run was beautiful, but was ruined by Denethor's slovenly eating.
Author:  Lady of Taniquetil [ January 21st, 2007, 10:55 pm ]
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oh i know! it was really dramatic too. i love pippin's song! and he sings good.
Author:  Sinbearer [ January 27th, 2007, 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Mid-sentence...
Tinuviel's Tears wrote:
...these are all things that we ourselves are guilty of. Perhaps that's why we dislike the so called "bad" characters in stories. We see our own faults reflected in them, and it disgusts us. Nobody likes to be reminded of their faults. But faults don't make you a bad person, and mistakes don't make you a bad person....


What a stimulating thought! How often I have caught myself in a tirade of words about someone who is so stupid, irrestponsible, inept.....and, stopping mid-sentence, I realize I am talking about myself. I leave the room embarrased.

This is why Tolkien's characters can teach us so much. Especially the "bad" ones. Thanks Tinuviel's Tears for bringing up that great thought.
Author:  Starlight [ January 27th, 2007, 12:37 pm ]
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Thanks for saying my thoguth was a great one. :) I assure it wasn't anything very extarordinary.

I think it's unfair that people automatically see the "bad" characters as people who are completely evil and just out to be the worst person they can possibly be. I used to be that way. I never gave the "bad" characters a thought. But then I read Lord of the Rings. And I joined this forum. And it made me really think and consider the villains a little more. Now, I think the villains can be some of the most interestingly intricate characters in the story, and sometimes they can actually be admirable or at least have admirable qualities. Boromir for instance. Most people seem to hate him. And so did I at first. But after thinking about it, I found out that I actually liked him a lot. The truth is, the "bad" characters are more or less just like us. Good people with good intentions who were tempted and lost their way. Now, I'm not excusing characters like Sauron or Morgoth. They were meant to be pure evil. But characters like Boromir and Denethor shoudl be given a chance.
Author:  bow_and_arrow [ February 3rd, 2007, 4:19 am ]
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I guess I dislike Denethor because I can relate to Faramir a lot, and Denethor is so mean to Faramir it sort of make me feel indignant and upset myself... Make sense?
Author:  Fencing Maiden [ February 8th, 2007, 12:31 pm ]
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I agree TT! Denethor, although he may be a disgusting character whom no one likes, is entirely essential to the story... and not so bad after all. Just a human gone wrong.

That being said... Denethor is one of my least favorite characters. I won't say hate, because I can't HATE anything having to do with LotR! ahah! Just, um, extremely have no care for. I do feel a slight pity for him when he dies, but more pity for Faramir.

Boromir... GAH! I *still* don't understand why people call him a bad character! He's a good charrie I say, a good one! But since this thread isn't on him, I'll stop this rant that wants to pour forth from me...
Author:  elvishjedipirate [ February 13th, 2007, 12:38 pm ]
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Lady of Taniquetil wrote:
and he made Pipipn cry!!! now that has got to be one of the meanest things ever done in the movies!!!!! hehe


And thus Denethor recieved my undying emnity. :bones:
Author:  Lady Imidri [ February 16th, 2007, 1:32 am ]
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Hanasían wrote:
Pippen singing while Faramir and the Knights of Gondor charging into Osgoliath on their suicide run was beautiful, but was ruined by Denethor's slovenly eating.


I agree. I cried during that scene, well, after a couple times of watching it and I actually knew what was going on...

Faramir became my tied first favorite character(tied with Eowyn and Pippin after that) mostly because he would die to show his father how much he loves him. Plus, Faramir is a great Captain and there's something about him that makes him look awesome too... Perhaps it's the fact that he's a ranger... Rangers are sweet.

Denethor RUINED the scene with him eating like a careless pig! If it would have been just Pippin and Faramir, the scen would have been waaay better!!!
Author:  Starlight [ February 17th, 2007, 11:18 pm ]
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^^^Thanks very much FM. I agree with you too though. We definitley like to dislike Denethor. In the movie more so than in the book, we're actually supposed to hate him. In the movie they don't explain how he had looked into the Palantir and been driven mad by what he saw inside it. In the movie, we're not really given the chance to understand Deenthor at all. We just see him as this bad guy who's mean to Faramir. He is a lot more than that. It just takes a little digging to see it.

By the way, I like Boromir a lot too, but we won't discuss that here, like you said.

As for the whole "Denethor ruined the scene by eating like a pig" thing, that was also meant to be there. It made Faramir's desperate and pretty much suicidal charge and Pippin's beautiful song seem even more beautiful and brave by contrast. Especially Faramir's charge. On one hand you have Faramir, so noble and brave, driven to wish for death by his father, and on the other hand you have the disgusting father who's being repulsive and getting food all over himself, not even caring that his sosn is out there risking his life.
Author:  Eä [ February 19th, 2007, 6:36 pm ]
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I can see I haven't posted in this thread yet.. Mainly because I didn't know what to feel about Denethor in the movie... I was looking for something that could apologize for or explain his behavior, but as far as I can see PJ left him to be a solely hated character, there is nothing to pity...

You have had some nice discussions going, but I admit - with shame! - that I haven't read through the whole thread yet. But I had to comment on the scene you are discussing now. I agree with T.T that it added something to the scene that Denethor ate that way. I always wanted to see it as an expression of the pent-up feelings he doesn't know - or doesn't want to show in public. I know it's pretty far-fetched, but I really wanted to understand him better and see his character as more layered. Denethor has been driven insane by by Sauron's manipulation through the palantir, he has lost his favorite son and he is despairing because he might feel he has failed as the ruler of Gondor and as a man. But he has also managed to repel everyone that he might have confided in. Everyone had come to hate or fear him at that time. he was a lonely man.
And now to my far-fetched explanation! 1. Lonely people who are dispised by all others, and who believe the end is near don't need to eat nicely!! 2. He might be touched by the whole situation, after all Faramir is also his son.. and he knows he is sending him to his death. I see the way he is eating and the way he just stares out in front of himself with this dull gaze as an expression of despair and defeat - and grief. But that's just me!! :P
Author:  bow_and_arrow [ February 20th, 2007, 1:07 pm ]
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That's great Eä! Sums up pretty much everything. He could have been beating himself up inside for being so mean to his son, because I am sure somewhere deep down Denethor loves Faramir, and so he took it out on his food and Pippin... :-D
Author:  Eä [ March 1st, 2007, 5:36 pm ]
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Thank you. :-)
Every parent must love his/her child, every father must love his son. Denethor must have felt terrible inside - or just empty. He really believed there was no hope left and that they were all going to die.
Author:  *Eruraina* [ March 3rd, 2007, 12:57 pm ]
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I still don't like his character, even if he did feel emty/terrible inside.. he didn't show that to Faramir!! It's just so mean!! And I think it's so stupid he doesn't want to call for help to rohan..

I do think the actor (sorry forgot his name :blush: ) did a great job!
Author:  evenstarelfe [ May 20th, 2007, 3:26 pm ]
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i can only say i despize him and ever since i saw ee i hate him and despize him even more. :explode: he makes me wanna explode. :explode: how can he treat poor faramir like that???? :confuzzled: :'( i mean poor faramir and he is so trying to please him... all he wants is a bit of fatherly love and he even can't get that... :explode:
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