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 Post subject: Theoden! :(
PostPosted: June 3rd, 2007, 2:40 pm 
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Does anyone agree with me? I didn't like Théoden in the movie! Bernard Hill was a good person to play him but his character was messed up!

First, he kicks Grima down the hard stone steps, and then is about to kill him with his sword. Of course, Aragorn “heroically” stops him, and forces him away. When he is pleading with Théoden not to spill any more blood on his account, Théoden turns and has this wild, vengeful look in his eyes...almost...madness. Like, maybe, DENETHOR???? What is up with that?

In the books, Théoden did not move a finger towards Grima, but calmly and wisely asked Gandalf's advice and followed it. He asked Grima, very politely, if he would prove himself true and ride to war to Isengard with him, and Grima then turned evil, and rode away. It was EOMER who tried to kill Grima; thankfully that was accurate.

Then Théoden argues with Aragorn about Gondor and what to do with the townspeople; maybe I am wrong but I don't remember there being a problem deciding whether or not to go to Helm’s deep in the books. And you don't see him fighting at helms deep until way later. Instead he stands safely out of the way of the fighting, giving commands and saying dramatic things.

In the scene where Haldir arrives...What was his problem? He frowned more in that scene than Denethor does in total! Haldir bows and is so polite, and Théoden doesn't say a word, just stands there glaring; not even a welcome or a thank you! And if you watch his face when Aragorn and Legolas hug Haldir: no trace of a smile. The real Théoden would not have been so grumpy! I just know he would have smiled, because he was a good-natured king.

In ROTK: I hated the whole mess with Théoden telling Eowyn he is happy for her. Even if Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn had been noticed, which is doubtful during such a time, they would NEVER have discussed it like that!!!

And then when she gets her heart broken (I hated that whole deal, too by the way, because A and E didn't ever discuss even an insinuation of her loving him), he is all grinning, and telling her she should smile, and he says, "No more despair." That is so stupid and so unlike the true Théoden. Now that things have gotten REALLY bad, NOW he smiles, and tries to tell Eowyn that everything is going great.

These are only a few examples I can think of right now, but there is also this one: One of Theoden's lines is, "Tell me: why should we go to the aid of those who did not come to ours?" What an idiot! They're not going to Gondor's aid, they're going to their own aid and saving the world! Yet all he can do is be sulky because Gondor didn't come all the way to Helm's Deep, so he's going to LET SAURON WIN???!!!

To be honest, that sounds like something the very mad Denethor would say. Those two were not at all alike in the books. Why did PJ do this? Does anyone else dislike the movie Théoden?

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PostPosted: June 3rd, 2007, 6:34 pm 
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He was a little... sulky, yeah. He wasn't terrible, but I agree, he wasn't exactly the best character in the whole movie.


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PostPosted: June 6th, 2007, 8:22 am 
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You pointed out a lot of good points. I think Theodon is ok.

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PostPosted: June 6th, 2007, 3:34 pm 
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Hmm...I never thought about that. Yeah, it is kind of annoying how messed up his character is. But I think they made up for it w/ the Simbelmyne scene and the preparing-for-battle scene. Those weren't in the book either, but I thought they were brilliant.

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PostPosted: June 9th, 2007, 12:36 pm 
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I did not say there was nothing good with Theoden. But I do think his character in the movie was messed up because there were so many things that they had the opportunity to do right and they were done wrong.

Anyways...thanks for the input! =)

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 Post subject: Theoden....
PostPosted: June 12th, 2007, 1:12 pm 
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An excellent article contrasting the movie and the book, and Denethor and Theoden in particular is here:

http://www.theonering.com/articles1-167 ... turetoFilm

Here is the excerpt out of that article:

The film's simplification of evil in the traditional forces of the Shadow also holds when applied to the more complex race of Men. Tolkien explicitly presents man's dual capacities for good and evil by contrasting pairs of similar characters. Théoden, King of Rohan, is the lord who learns from his mistakes and repents; while Denethor, Steward of Gondor, remains trapped in his manic fantasies. Jackson, however, introduces subtle differences in the films. Théoden's "cure" by Gandalf is not complete: instead of boldly advancing against Saruman to meet him at Helm's Deep, Jackson portrays a more timid Théoden retreating towards the caverns. Also, unlike the novels, Théoden hesitates to send his forces to the aid of Minas Tirith. It seems that Jackson believes that this much more gradual revival is more believable to a film audience.

In contrast with Théoden, Denethor remains static as the proudest character throughout the novels. In the end, he is driven to despair by what he feels is the impending destruction of Gondor. "The west has failed," he says, "It shall all go up in a great fire, and all shall be ended. Ash!" (Return 141). In his madness he chooses death by casting himself into the fire in a manner similar to the corrupted lords of sunken Númenor. Despite this, his pride keeps him fighting until Minas Tirith looks lost. He is, however, a much more sinister character in the films: a fact evidenced by his near refusal to defend Gondor and even by his appearance (above). Jackson, unfortunately, fails to fully encompass the scope of Denethor's character. Tolkien's Denethor is neither good nor evil. Rather, it is easy to imagine that he sees himself as failure for not fulfilling his duty as Steward of Gondor to protect the realm. By introducing elements of evil and cowardice into their characters, Jackson attempts to show a much more human-and fallible-aspect in these two lords. Denethor's villainy not only causes tension with Gandalf and Pippin, but it also highlights the ability of great men to do ill. However by changing Denethor and Théoden, Jackson polarizes them to such an extent that we can no longer recognize similarities between them: Théoden remains weak-willed and Denethor is more evil than proud. The films lose Tolkien's complete depiction of mankind found in the juxtaposition of these two. While this view succeeds in interesting audiences, it loses Tolkien's original message of the twofold nature of man to either overcome or fall prey to despair and evil.

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PostPosted: June 17th, 2007, 12:11 am 
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Thank you for your reply, Sinbearer, I always love the way you put things! :)

Yes, I think he did a LOT of things to make it more "believable". Faramir's reaction to the ring is one, which I won't adress here...

I definitely see how Denethor and Theoden are very different, in both the books and the movies...but the simliarities I spoke of are concerning facial expressions, gestures, that sort of thing. As I said, in that picture of Aragorn greeting Haldir, Theoden has the angriest, most cold look on his face; and I can not figure out for the life of me where that came from. Shouldn't he be grateful for Haldir's help?

I don't get how I could read the books and understand the characters and situations perfectly (though at first having a lot of difficulty putting it into words) and then I hear it being debated and knocked back and forth and eventually changed; all because people can't see it the author's way.

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 Post subject: Q!
PostPosted: June 17th, 2007, 1:23 am 
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I know. I suppose there are a lot of ways to interperate a book. Some people say the book should have everything in it to make its point pristinely without looking at the authors life or other works. Others look outside the book to the authors reality and world view to complete the picture. And some make up their own interpretation to fit the way they view life and pretty much say "to hell with what the author might have intended, this is the way I see it!"

But I suppose that any good book should be its own interpretor because it is consistent with itself and we should be able to easily find the authors purpose and intent within the pages. As deep as LotR goes, it is no wonder there are so many interpretations but some things are so clear that I don't think anyone should be able to miss the meaning because it is right on the surface. I think that is what you are talking about here.

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PostPosted: June 17th, 2007, 8:07 am 
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I couldn't agree more. :D The points the story makes should not be so hard to miss because it is, as you said, consistent with itself.

I just wish Theoden, and a lot of the other characters, were not changed in the movie to modernize it more.

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PostPosted: June 21st, 2007, 3:26 pm 
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While a agree with you, Miriel, I have to say, something obviously had to be changed in order for the movie to work. I read the books first, then saw the movies a few months later. And a few months ago, this year, I went on a LotR kick and read alll the books, and watched at least one of the movies almost every week. And I noticed a lot of things in the films that were changed, but it makes sense. They don't have time to give all the necessary backstory, and other things like that. It's just something you must accept.

And I don't know why I've brought that up. Obviously it's accepted that movies change things, but still. *shrugs* I'll shut up and stop rambling now.

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Last edited by MadameAngel on June 22nd, 2007, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: June 21st, 2007, 11:54 pm 
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Hmm, never thought of that. I guess I was in too much of a twit about Faramir to notice it. :P You've got a point. Though I don't recall the Theoden in the book as having much character. That could have been the reason why they put all that in. (Forgive me if I'm wrong, I've been long over due for a re-read and have just been too busy. :blush:)

Though I have to say, that whole thing about not going to Gondor's aid was very obnoxious. :annoyed2: When Aragorn first tells Theoden to ask Gondor for help, Theoden says "No." And when Gandalf tells Denethor to ask Rohan for help, he says "No." Then when Gandalf goes and lights the beacons anyway, Theoden says "Why should we ride to aid to those who did not come to ours?" But... wait... he didn't want help from Gondor! So what's he complaining about?

Ah, I'm just rambling now...

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PostPosted: June 22nd, 2007, 1:45 pm 
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No, I agree with you...but I disagree that Theoden did not have much character. Just because someone doesn't make a lot of stupid mistakes doesn't mean they're not an interesting character. The movie writers made that type of mistake a lot.

In reply to MadameAngel:

I am perfectly aware of why the movies have to be different from the books, but I can't help but but be distraught when a good character has SO MANY negative changes to him when they had every opportunity to do it right and it wouldn't have hurt the story.

But while I try to make it clear that those were not good ideas for Theoden, I am not necessarily dissing the movie makers for every little thing. As I write my own fan fics, I am beginning to understand how PJ, Fran, Philippa and the others got messed up mindsets. When you’re writing, you get to a point where you feel like you own the characters. Even if you started out as a purist, you can’t stop yourself from reaching that sort of comfortable place where you can make the characters do and be whatever you think best. And if you’re making a movie, it’s even more complicated, because you start unconsciously fixing up story lines and personalities and subtle little nuances to fit the person who is playing the character.

That is why we have Arwen with a sword in her hands, replacing Glorfindel, not to mention crying like a baby on her father, and acting like a dissed girlfriend when Aragorn leaves with the fellowship. And that’s why Legolas says things like, “Shall I describe it for you, or would you like me to find you a box?”, “Final count: forty two.”, and “Game over.”, and does things like surfing down stairways. That’s why Gimli actually calls him pointy-eared TWICE, and talks about “squirrel droppings” and “cross-country”. And don’t forget about “Nervous system”. That’s why Ugluk says, “Looks like meat’s back on the menu, boys!”, Gollum says, “No hard feelings,” and why Merry and Pippin are so modern; don’t even have enough room for how many lines they have that don’t quite sound hobbitish. To name a few: “The world’s back to normal,” “You can’t take forever,” “That rules you out,” and “Mission-quest-thing.” That’s why everybody in the movie says, “Come on,” instead of just “Come.” (Except the hobbits, who did say it in the book.) I'm not saying I don't like those things, it just shows how much they changed over the three years of making the films, and knowing the people who played the characters it would be hard not to.

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PostPosted: June 22nd, 2007, 10:34 pm 
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I knew that you knew what I mean, and.... I'm not sure why I said anything... Guess I'd better butt out of the discussion then, as I'm not very.......I don't know.

*bows out*

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PostPosted: June 22nd, 2007, 10:47 pm 
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:bounce: I'm sorry if I offended you, MadameAngel: sometimes I get a bit passionate in order to make myself clear. It didn't have anything to do with you. I don't want you to feel like you should not give your input... :confuzzled:

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PostPosted: June 23rd, 2007, 11:33 am 
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You didn't. But I didn't really have anything to say in the first place, so... *shrug* Well, nothing to say that everyone didn't already know, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Theoden! :(
PostPosted: June 27th, 2007, 8:44 am 
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~Miriel~ wrote:
Does anyone agree with me? I didn't like Théoden in the movie! Bernard Hill was a good person to play him but his character was messed up!

First, he kicks Grima down the hard stone steps, and then is about to kill him with his sword. Of course, Aragorn “heroically” stops him, and forces him away. When he is pleading with Théoden not to spill any more blood on his account, Théoden turns and has this wild, vengeful look in his eyes...almost...madness. Like, maybe, DENETHOR???? What is up with that?

In the books, Théoden did not move a finger towards Grima, but calmly and wisely asked Gandalf's advice and followed it. He asked Grima, very politely, if he would prove himself true and ride to war to Isengard with him, and Grima then turned evil, and rode away. It was EOMER who tried to kill Grima; thankfully that was accurate.

Then Théoden argues with Aragorn about Gondor and what to do with the townspeople; maybe I am wrong but I don't remember there being a problem deciding whether or not to go to Helm’s deep in the books. And you don't see him fighting at helms deep until way later. Instead he stands safely out of the way of the fighting, giving commands and saying dramatic things.

In the scene where Haldir arrives...What was his problem? He frowned more in that scene than Denethor does in total! Haldir bows and is so polite, and Théoden doesn't say a word, just stands there glaring; not even a welcome or a thank you! And if you watch his face when Aragorn and Legolas hug Haldir: no trace of a smile. The real Théoden would not have been so grumpy! I just know he would have smiled, because he was a good-natured king.

In ROTK: I hated the whole mess with Théoden telling Eowyn he is happy for her. Even if Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn had been noticed, which is doubtful during such a time, they would NEVER have discussed it like that!!!

And then when she gets her heart broken (I hated that whole deal, too by the way, because A and E didn't ever discuss even an insinuation of her loving him), he is all grinning, and telling her she should smile, and he says, "No more despair." That is so stupid and so unlike the true Théoden. Now that things have gotten REALLY bad, NOW he smiles, and tries to tell Eowyn that everything is going great.

These are only a few examples I can think of right now, but there is also this one: One of Theoden's lines is, "Tell me: why should we go to the aid of those who did not come to ours?" What an idiot! They're not going to Gondor's aid, they're going to their own aid and saving the world! Yet all he can do is be sulky because Gondor didn't come all the way to Helm's Deep, so he's going to LET SAURON WIN???!!!

To be honest, that sounds like something the very mad Denethor would say. Those two were not at all alike in the books. Why did PJ do this? Does anyone else dislike the movie Théoden?

great point of wiew. i never thought about it that way, and i generally like theoden but i think you are wright. :closedeyes: the fact that he didn't even thanked or greeted haldir was very wrong, and that line was really horrible. :explode:


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