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Post subject:  Posted: September 11th, 2007, 10:53 pm |
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^^So do you think his patronus changed from something else into a doe after Lily's death or do you think it momentarily changed then returned to a doe?? (I'm just trying to clarify things for my own sake)
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Post subject: Posted: September 12th, 2007, 2:44 pm |
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Hmm I see what you both say. I remember now that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix (but I still don't remember how I know it) and it does make sense that Voldemort didn't have one. However, I'm sure Tom Riddle might have had one... before he split his soul. He did have good memories.. from Hogwarts among others. Wasn't the Patronus charm a part of the curriculum in one of the earlier books?
Yay, back to the subject on Snape and his patronus... oh and Death Eaters.. well, even 'bad' people have 'good' memories, right? Their memories are just different from other peoples' 'good' memories, right? But you're right, the patronus is mostly a guardian against Dark Creatures or Dark Arts so it would be sort of contradictory if the Death Eaters used it on a regular basis!
And yes Larael, how did you imagine Snape's patronus before and after Lily's death?
On Hermione's patronus... perhaps you're right, that the Patronus charm is more emotional than ehh.. book-ish... but... still Hermione is a bright which... and she's a girl.. female intuition, emotions and all that...  _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: September 12th, 2007, 8:11 pm |
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I looked on an interview with JKR and she said that Snape was the only Death Eater(if we still call him one,) who could proform a Patronus charm. The other Death Eaters didn't need it, because they worked with dementors. Snape was very carefull of about not useing the charm around other DE's.
I don't think this patronus changed after Lily's death because he always loved Lily, before and after she died, so I think it would have always been a doe.
Does anyone know what Ron's Patronus is?
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Post subject: Posted: September 12th, 2007, 10:51 pm |
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I think it's a dog....pretty sure....
_________________ Formerly Eruwaedhiel
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Post subject: Posted: September 13th, 2007, 12:19 am |
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5.17 in the morning... and after a day of reading it I've finally finished the blasted book...
I can barely see what I'm tpying, tears are just tripping me.... it's stupid... UI've never been this way before..
*sobs*
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Post subject: Posted: September 14th, 2007, 7:48 am |
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Hmmm... I wonder what my patronus would be... Perhaps a duckie... lol.
Anyway Gimli, any thoughts on the book now it's been a couple of days since you read it. _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: September 14th, 2007, 11:02 am |
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Well I can't deny that it is a very good book, highly complicated but then again so was HBP in parts. It was hard sometimes to keep up with all the reasons behind why they needed this or that, and what this meant etc, so I just put my faith in the fact it would all be explained eventually, and that my confusion would come to a swift end.
It was a shame that it was set outside Hogwarts, as it would have been nice to have been there one last time, but obviously it couldn't have been, and I was surprised actually that I wasn't missing Hogwarts. It was only hours after reading it that I remembered that Hogwarts was barely seen.
My main problem with this book is it was too dark. Before everyone leaps on me like a pack of Bowtruckles, let me explain.
I think saying that "the reader grows with the characters" is frankly, a bit stupid. I don't think in 5 years time some 11 year old will ration his HP books, so when he is 17 so are the main characters. For a start Harry, Ron and Hermione, don't really grow or progress, apart from magic they can do that they couldn't do at the age of 11, I don't think their characters have changed much. The only (or one of the few characters) to grow, progress and change is Neville.
My point being, I thought that it was unessecarily dark and upsetting in some points. No-one will ever convince me that Hedwig dying was for any other reason than to make the reader feel sad. Come on, she was an owl...she was hardly going to bring down the Dark Lord was she?
And obviously, things were going to get darker and everything, but I'm still unsure as to whether killing off so many beloved characters was the right thing to do? You don't need deaths of people you like to prove a situation was dangerous or dark and that bad things were happening. Look at LOTR. Only 2 people died that everyone really liked - Theoden and Boromir - and yet you couldn't deny that the situtaion was bad.
I'm sure JK could have just shown more people with injuries than anything else. I mean, in OOTP you had a bunch of 15 year-olds fighting Death Eaters and succeeding, in this one, it would have been mainly 17 year-olds and older students, plus adults and teachers sooo.... it's not entirely impossible that many people were injured but still survived.
But that's just me. It's different if this had been a one-off book, or even a film, and a character had died that I liked. But after so many years of following characters and to have so many die... it was... just not right and didn't help to make me believe that the battle more was dangerous than I had already expected it to be. The death that really got me was Colin Creevey. I mean.. why? He was just a decent kid who had been mentioned various times during the series.... what other characters that we know died in that battle?
I don't know. Maybe it's just me. But I don't think killing off a bunch of characters, just because things got bad, is a good reason for doing it myself.
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Post subject: Posted: September 14th, 2007, 4:50 pm |
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Alright, I'm going to respond to all your sorta questions about the deaths of everyone. So here goes...
First off , Hedwig. I was very shocked and hurt myself when she was killed. However, I do see why JKR did it. She even addressed the issue herself. Hedwig dying was a symbol for Harry to grow up. He wasn't a little boy anymore and Hedwig had always be a "cuddly toy" for him. SO her dying leaves him completely and totally alone for the first time since he was 11.
Second off, the death of the beloved characters. I totally understand what you are saying about killing so many people. I don't like it either, however, if you really think about it probably at least 90% of the people fighting Voldemort were "beloved" characters. You used the example of LoTR, ok only 2 well liked characters were killed but they weren't the ONLY good guys killed. There were many deaths of elved and man alike, but there were more less developed characters to kill. In HP almost the entire fighthing league was beloved and involved in the story from nearly the beginning. So as much as I didn't like her killing as many characters that I loved so very very much I understood why it was done. You can't have a war and only have casualties on a singular side. It just wouldn't be believable.
Third, this kinda ties in with what is mentioned above and this is just my personal opinion for how and why death eaters couldn't dispose of children but kill so many adult wizards. Im my honest opinion I think that the Death Eaters greatly underestimated the underaged witches and wizards which would make for some big surprises and huge mistakes on the Death Eaters' part when an underage witch/wizard would challenge them. They would consider it a "joke". As for a full grown witch/wizard would be taken much more seriously because they have proven themselves skillfull. Does that make sense.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 10:15 am |
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Hmm.. no offence... but I doubt most people thought Hedwig's death was a symbol of Harry having to grow up - even if that is what JK was wanting it to be. I mean, since he has been at Hogwarts he has never truly been alone - although obviously Hermione and Ron weren't stuck at home with him like Hedwig was, and also, all through DH Harry was with someone... so I'm still not really sure why she did have to die.
Yes, that's very true. Like the major battles had lots of deaths but we just didn't see them or know them etc. Fair enough, kill off some of the characters.... but let's give them a point eh? I mean, Remus and Tonks, why did they die and how did they die? It's like being with Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli in FOTR, and then they come across Boromir and find him dead... ??? ... we know he died fighting evil... but why did he die? Or the first mention of Gandalf's death was in Lothlorien with Galadriel, and we never hear about him again. The deaths of all the major characters... blink and you'd miss them... they weren't emotional deaths, and the reason I was reduced to a weeping puddle was because I knew they'd never be around anymore. But now I'm more angry than anything, because they died and JK thinks that is that. Well personally, I want more. I want to know they died protecting someone or that they didn't just die to add to the body count.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 10:54 am |
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I find myself having no clear opinion of the book at the moment. It's been a couple of months since I read it (isn't it? When did it come out again?) and I've never been a huge fan of the series. I've read the books but not in an obsessive manner. I don't even have all the details clear and I tend to forget peoples and connections from previous books but over all I remember liking how Rowling didn't go for a sappy, happy, cheesy ending. Whether it was well-written or there were too many deaths I can't say, although it did seem kind of meaningless - though plausible - that Tonks and Remus died. Hedwig... well, I didn't see the point when I read it but I actually 'like' it, if Rowling did it as a symbol of Harry loosing his innocence and entering manhood etc. etc. Nice move after all.
I have nothing to say really to whether it would be plausible that 17-year olds could fight - and defeat Death Eaters. I don't know much about how the spells work and how trained and experienced a wizard/witch must be to use them in a real battle.
I would like to say something about the Death Eaters, though.
In my understanding they aren't exceptionally great wizards, they're just ordinary people, right? Some are skilled and some are less skilled. Many of them supported Voldemort because they found the Dark Arts fascinating, which isn't very strange; 1. it is the forbidden, 2. it can make you powerful. And they knew and respected Voldemort from their school years at Hogwarts. I don't believe many of them were bright students (except for Snape), but perhaps they were looking for fame and power in other ways, hoping they would get it through Voldemort.
I don't think they intended to do all the things he made them do later on, but gradually they were absorbed by their Death Eater identity and they couldn't go back to normal lives. The Wizard community would shun them and they might not have dared walking out on Voldemort when he gained power. So they were trapped and stayed because of fear for their lives.
*cough* I had a point here somewhere... *searches for point in a black, pointy hat*
Ohh yeah, so that's why students had a chance against the Death Eaters, they were equals in many ways and also they numbers must have counted. _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 12:24 pm |
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Yeah, I guess quite a few people after all this time, will have forgotten certain aspects of it.... my bad for taking so long to read the darn thing. 
Yes, I too am glad there are no sappy endings but... one minute someone is alive and the next their dead on the floor? I don't think that is a very fitting way for a character (and a skilled character at that, we know Remus and Tonks were both skilled)... it wouldn't have been so bad if we heard other characters talking about how they saw them die, so at least we the reader, knew how they died. I mean did they die like Fred? Did a wall fall on top of them or were they killed defending someone?
Well that's what I'm saying. I think if 6, 15 year olds managed to fight of Death Eaters and other things in OOTP, then I don't see why when there were so many 17+ students and adults fighting, that so many characters we knew had to die. Obviously a lot were killed on both sides.. but I'd rather they weren't people we knew well or really cared about. Mad Eye's death was for me, probably the best as he died for a reason, and we knew how he died.
That's very true about the Death Eaters. I don't think you had to be particularly great at anything to become one, as long as you liked the Dark Arts and were going to be loyal to Voldemort, I don't think it mattered. Some of them had their fields of expertise, I'm sure but on the whole they were just ordinary wizards who weren't afraid to go that extra mile and hurt people. That was probably the advantage they had over the students in the battle, as they would hurt and kill whoever got in their way, whereas some of the students may not have wanted to go that far, and paid the price.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 1:20 pm |
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In defense of Hedwig's death, I must agree with Eru. As someone who has grown up with Harry Potter I find the death of such an innocent creature to be very disturbing. Especially, when it was in such an inhumane and cruel way. Hedwig was a symbol of Harry's childhood, and her death only closed the curtain between the whimsical fantasy world from previous books and brought forth a more gritty, and realistic backdrop for the final book.
I too was disappointed in Remus and Tonks' deaths, although it didn't come as a shock to me. It made sense that we didn't get to see their deaths. First off, Harry wasn't around, and we almost always see everything from Harry's pov. Second, this is a war. You don't always see your good friends die when your in a war. So many things are happening that it's impossible to see it all. It shows the rawness and unpredictibility [sp.] in war.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 1:37 pm |
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Hmm... well I don't really see it like that, sorry. That seems to be slightly "going into" the story, just a little bit much for me, even if that was what JK was aiming for. When I read about Hedwig dying, I wasn't thinking about it being "oh, well that's just a sign that Harry's growing up, rather than the fact he is of age, we'll kill the owl so he has grown up in mind as well".
I just don't buy that at all, I'm afraid. Sorry. There are lots of things that connect Harry with his childhood and younger years at Hogwarts and the more whimsical side of the books.... I just don't see the need for killing Hedwig, I doubt she would have accompanied him on his journey, and I doubt the first thing he'd have done when he got back was give her a cuddle. It just made me feel side, and in my opinion, unecessarily sad.
Not necessarily actually witnessing their deaths, but I think we the readers deserve to know how they died. As I said, other characters could be heard talking about them... had their been another chapter detailing funerals etc, we could have heard about it then. I just don't like the fact, good characters die and we don't know how.
I realise I am probably being uber stubborn about this, but I am old and set in my ways, so you'll have to forgive me.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 2:09 pm |
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*le nod* I can understand where you're coming from. Truthfully, I didn't come to that conclusion about Hedwig's death until after I'd finished the book. At the time, it was a shock because it was done to cruelly and quickly, without time to really think. One second she was there, the next second she wasn't. The bottom line is that it's war, and death is inevitable for everyone.
Ah, but that's what the supposed HP encyclopedia will be for.  JKR has said it herself. And in the web chat she was in a while back she stated that Bellatrix killed Tonks and Dolohov killed Remus.
Ya know what I wouldn't liked? When Harry had the ressurrection stone, why didn't he bring Snape back? I mean, it would've been a good chance to say thanks, don't ya think? Without Snape Harry might've never known about being a Horcrux and all would've been in vain.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 2:16 pm |
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Yeah, frankly I'm not surprised she's going to write that, as there are quite a few things that I think we all still need to know.
Yes, I read about that as well. Still, it would have been nice finding that out in the book... it could be after numerous requests she just had to come up with how they died. We all know Lestrange was a nasty piece of work, and she probably was more powerful than Tonks, but I want to know how Remus was killed by Dolohov. I never really thought about him dying because although he's never really proved it, I just knew he was a powerful wizard.
Yeah, that would have been nice. I thought it was shame Tonks wasn't there.
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Post subject: Posted: September 15th, 2007, 2:22 pm |
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*refrains from commenting on the deaths*
I simply don't know what to say about it...
Johnny's Fan wrote: That's very true about the Death Eaters. I don't think you had to be particularly great at anything to become one, as long as you liked the Dark Arts and were going to be loyal to Voldemort, I don't think it mattered. Some of them had their fields of expertise, I'm sure but on the whole they were just ordinary wizards who weren't afraid to go that extra mile and hurt people. That was probably the advantage they had over the students in the battle, as they would hurt and kill whoever got in their way, whereas some of the students may not have wanted to go that far, and paid the price.
Good point, and I doubt that many of the students could have killed Death Eaters with the Killing Curse... they simply wouldn't be serious about it... I mean some of them might be able to, like Neville and others who had lost family members.. but still, the hatred it takes... But that doesn't mean they couldn't fight and hurt the Death Eaters in other ways. _________________ >>Be the change you wish to see in the world<<
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