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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*

*pokeths* You be an AU ghosty now JF-ish-ness.

Anyhoo, yeah, trust me I can as well. At any rate, I like this kinds of discussions. It's so interesting to hear what other people from different walks of life have to say.

Wow, I have nothing to add, really. *bows to the debating powers of the JF-ish-ness*

Well, I take that back. I guess I'd like to say that I believe in the importance of marriage because I believe in the importance of commitment. If I feel I've truly found a person I love and completes me and I want to spend the rest of my life with them, then of course I'm going to marry them. Marriage insures (or used to, anyway) that these two people will stick it through thick and thin no matter what happens. They aren't just bound by romantic love, but a more real, day-to-day love that involves getting out of bed every morning and living with a person who perhaps you don't like everything about at the moment.
Sex, to me, seems like such a large and life-changing event between two people...I don't think I'd ever want to have that sort of bonding with more than one person. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a relationship that involved it, knowing that at any moment my partner could walk out on me because no commitment held him.
And I don't believe people should be stuck in these relationships when they're not in love, either. That's why you consider the strength of your love before entering said relationship. If your love is expected to fade away in months or years and you know that it probably won't last for your whole life, I don't want to commit myself to that person as physically and emotionally as is possible between two people. I want to save sex for marriage because it's a close as you can get to a person. Being that close with someone other than my husband would be really uncomfortable, to say the least.

And, of course, I do have my religious beliefs. But one of the reasons I follow said beliefs is not just because they're there, but because I see the reasoning behind them.

(And I second Larael's compliment; it's been really interesting to hear your opinion, Caunion.)

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<center> all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us


Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

I guess a lot of things shape my opinion on this matter, first my religion, secondly my family. But I think that even if it weren't for those two things, I still would be against pre-marital sex.

Imagine if nobody had pre-marital sex.
Think about how many abortions there are today, and how many of those are from un-married youngsters...
I don't know all the statistics, but I was reading up on it at www.abort73.com (great site...) yesterday, and it made my jaw drop.

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Ok, now I am sorely tempted to say something now....

For one, I find JF's comment here rather harsh:


In this world, certain relationships can't be married. Namely same-sex marriages. If you are to look at the world today, same sex marriages are recognised only in five countries: Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands, South Africa, and Spain. Civil unions, which are similar to same sex marriages, are recognised in a further sixteen countries: Andorra, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, and Uruguay. Out of the 244 or so countries in the world, less than one tenth allow same sex unions. In fact, seven countries call for the death of homosexuals: Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen. And it's not like the origins of marriage are treating the same-sex relationships well. In fact, they support laws and violence against them. They also support the idea that a wife should submit to their husband. That women should remain silent and not be as equal as men. These reasons may deter one from pursuing a marriage at all. Of course, I'm not saying that all adherents believe that homosexuals should be killed or women should submit to their husbands. But in all honesties, I scarcely blame anyone if they don't want to get married. Especially when the institutions have so much power over the government.

On the issue of teenage sex: Ok, yes, while I completely understand that while teenage sex should definitely wait until the age of consent comes, once you think about it, it's a rather reasonable choice for pregnant teenage girls to get an abortion. (FYI: The statistics for teenage abortions are as followed:

There were 214,750 abortions among 15-19-year-olds in 2002.
Twenty-nine percent of pregnancies among 15-19-year-olds ended in abortion in 2002, compared with 21% among all women.
The reasons teens give most frequently for having an abortion are concern about how having a baby would change their lives, inability to afford a baby now and feeling insufficiently mature to raise a child.
Thirty-four states (as of August 2006) require that a minor seeking an abortion involve her parents in the decision.
Six in 10 minors who have abortions do so with at least one parent's knowledge. The great majority of parents support their daughter's decision to have an abortion.

(all of this comes from here: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_ATSRH.html))

Honestly, if you were pregnant, would you risk subjecting your child to an upbringing that can lead to disaster? While of course, the best thing is not to conceive the child in the first place (abstinence, contraception, take your pick), when you are pregnant, what would you do?

And since we all agree that teenage sex is a problem (Yes, I don't think teenagers should all have sex without making sure they know exactly what they're doing and they're doing it at their free will), what would you do to prevent it then?

As for premarital sex, once you become an adult, I really don't think anything should stop you from having consensual sex. Honestly. You're of age (whatever age that happens to be in your country). You know better to use a condom or a contraceptive. You know that you shouldn't rape people or have sex with minors. If you find someone that is quite willing to have sex with you, go for it. It's a careless attitude, I know (I won't be like that), but in all honesties, they're adults now. They can make their own choices and should be able to.

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I was cured all right.

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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*

I'm sorry if I seemed too rash. Same sex marriage is a sensitive issue for me.
But, still, even those that can marry may sometimes refuse to. Marriage is a fairly large deal. It requires a lot of commitment and trust and faith that some people don't find they have. And that's ok. No one should force you into it if you don't think you can marry. You can still have close intimate romantic relationships without marriage. And the idea that if you're not married you can sleep around even if you're with someone is rather incorrect. You will find bonds that are as strong or even stronger between non married people than married people. They brave tough times together. In fact, I find the only thing separating married people and non-married people is simply the fact they're married. And simply the fact that is used for thousands of years is no reason why it should be continued. There are numerous examples of practices that are no longer practiced today. Usually for moral or practical reasons. But personally I don't think it's our business to get into interpersonal relationships in the first place. So, at that note, I conclude my position.

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I was cured all right.

I appreciate your points, Caunion. And I totally understand about the rest of the world...the conditions of marriage in some places are truly terrible. And no one should marry against their will. I guess my main question is--if you can marry, then why not? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

As for abortion, I'm afraid that is a very controversial topic and we shouldn't really talk about it in depth. My abbreviated view is that I believe that no human life should be sacrificed for the convienence of another, and that no one would actually choose to have never been born, no matter how dire the circumstances they were born into. Great people have risen from miserable places. But that's all I'm going to say on the matter, and I apologize if I've opened my mouth far too wide already.

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<center> all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us


Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

I can completely understand where you're coming from. It seems that the most tolerant people in the world [meaning those who will accept same-sex marriages] are people our age. Those who run the government are from another era where that sort of thing was frowned upon; it's what they've always known to be right. I know that's sort of an odd concept for us since most, if not all, teenagers are tolerant of homosexuals. I think if such countries like the US and the UK changed their views on same-sex marriage then we could be on our way to more tolerant world. It'd be like follow the leader; once one major country does it, the rest will follow.

On the topic of marriage, I must say that I have respect for any two people who love eachother enough to either get married or pledge themselves to eachother in another way. I know marriage will be the way for me, however I still think it's amazing how many couples trust eachother enough not to get married and can still lead normal lives.

Ah, abortion. I'm against it for one, but I don't hate people who do it. That's their choice, not mine, and if I ever find myself in that situation I know what path I will choose.

Oh here's another issue that I've been having lately (not related to sex or marriage in any way).

Being an artist I am, I sometimes need reference pictures. And in one piece I was working on, I was drawing a picture of a naked girl. And since I have too much homework at home, I work on my drawing in school. The problem is, though, I am now sort of labeled as a pornography artist, even though the pose that the girl is taking is in no sense erotic or arousing and she isn't with anyone. So I find that extremely unfair. Does anyone else think the same or have I finally completely lost it?

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I was cured all right.

I think you're entitled to draw anything you want to. Countless numbers of famous artists have drawn women naked in their pictures. If a girl were drawing pictures of naked men in much the same way you are [just for the sake of art] would we label her a *beep* artist? People who call you such things are being ridiculous.

Well, after what is it, two months of negligence, I think it's time to revive this with a very thought-provoking question: Is it worth falling in love? Is it worth having your heart stolen by someone and probably broken? Just for the chance that you'll be happy? Or would you rather remain alone never having to have your heart broken but never having to feel love?

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I was cured all right.

I would rather hold my love back until someone expresses interest in me and we're at least courting... though technically by the definition of love by serving others I'm loving them already.

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PM me with prayer requests
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Ill assume you mean the romatic type of love, so Ill use that as a premise and work from it..

I think that all you have said has a valid place. Hell,I know that loving too much can break you, it can destroy you to the very core. Losing that person you think is "the one" can take the entireity of you and chew it up and spit it out.

For those reasons alone, there would be a good case for outlawing love.

But............

Love is just as much a maker as a breaker.It can make you smile when you are down, can raise you to heights of mercy, patience, courage and give you strength that you have never known. Even lost love, if used correctly can make you stronger, more discerning, more wise....

There is a little saying I love that speaks of the power of probability. It is that if you take an infinite number of monkeys, and an infinite number if typewriters, then probability dictates that they must write the entire works of William Shakespeare.
By the same token, for everyone who loses love, one must gain love.
I believe that love is precious, and if we had not love in this world, despite all we have, we would be paupers indeed....

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"This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck? "