I think I was hoping for a bit more reception that this. Thanks for your input though, NuMa. I shall do my very best to respond with original thoughts.

I like your response concerning Snape's boggart a lot. I'm not sure if I can agree with the Lily bit though, because Lily rejecting him has already happened. I've always thought it might have something to do with Lily though to serve as a constant reminder of what he threw away in his life. I also like you're idea on the memories he has when a Dementor is near. I can't help not leaving Lily out of this one though either. Perhaps another memory that haunts him is the proclaimed "worst memory" of the day he called Lily a Mudblood.

Lol. It's true, but after rereading DH a few times and really taking in the conversations he has in The Prince's Tale it seems unlike him to be snarky like that for no reason. I will concede you're probably right about Harry. Snape certainly isn't the only one who's been annoyed by Hermione. Here's an idea that's a bit weird-ish - What if he sees a bit of Lily in Hermione? Obviously Hermione and Lily aren't related, but both were good students and I've always thought that Lily could've possibly been a bit brainy like Hermione as well.

You're answer was right on with what I thought. It's sort of odd knowing that Snape doesn't know what really happened to cause the Potters' deaths. Actually, I think he still blames a lot of it on himself for hearing the prophecy in the first place. Here's a question though - If Snape was working as a double agent wouldn't he have eventually found out that Peter had betrayed the Potter's to begin with? Or do you think Voldemort would have never spoken of the events leading up to his first downfall afterward?

I'm gonna jump into the discussion again.

I disagree with Numa on Snape's worst memories. As we have discussed before (though without reaching a conclusion) I don't think Snape particularly regrets his doings as a Deatheater. He is not overly empathetic or moral... I mean it's my impression that he co-operates with the Order mostly to get personal revenge for his own loss of Lily. I think he might be even proud of some of the things he has accomplished under the Dark Lord, because he may still admire hos powers and knowledge, skills Snape has been interested in and working towards since he was a student at Hogwarts.
Well, your idea is as good as mine, none of us can ever know for sure, but I think I'm sticking to my first idea of Snape regretting the death of Lily and recalling his sad childhood when Dementors are near.

His Boggart... does Snape have a Boggart? I have a feeling he would destroy it before it could take any form, lol.

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Boggart: Hmm, what is Severus Snape's worst fear?
Snape: *opens cupboard*
Boggart: *shapeshifting time*
Snape: *uses mad spellworking skillz* DIE!

All in a days work.

Anyhoo, in some ways I'd like to agree with you, Eä concerning Snape having no regrets about being a Deatheater, but in other ways I'd like to disagree.

I don't think it can be doubted that Snape was enamoured by Voldy's power and knowledge. We know that Snape ultimately joined the DE for a combination of reasons - he thought it would impress Lily and perhaps he would get a bit of Voldy's mad skills at the same time. I'm not so sure if I would go so far as to say that Snape does not regret being a Deatheater. He is not empathetic or moral [Eä got that one spot on ], but at the same time I think some aspects of the DE brotherhood would have nagged at him later. It's hard for any person to not feel slightly guilty for killing/endangering innocent people.

Although, it seems there are plenty of people in our world today who don't mind it so much.

Here's another question - Do you think Snape ever killed anyone whilst on DE duty? What about once he was in the Order?

Lols Lary... that's exactly how I pictured Snape dealing with a Boggart!

Well, to understand my point of view I need to explain a little bit. As I see it there are two versions of Snape. There is the Snape Rowling builds up all through the series from book 1 to 6, the villain Snape, the black sheep, the joker. And there is the sensitive Snape fully revealed in DH when Rowling makes all ends meet and ties the knot in an unexpected pattern. Snape the romantic, the suffering lover. The person we all are able to forgive for all his wrongs and his often mean behaviour towards the trio, because now we see him in a new light. And I am mostly a fan of the first Snape. I know there is only one Snape and we should see him and all his actions as a whole after DH, but I can't help keeping to the book 1-6 Snape. I have a soft spot for villains... and I think his humour and sarcasm is great.

Therefore I think Snape might not regret what he did as a Deatheater to the point where it haunts his dreams. I like to think he might even be proud of some of it because he is the kind of person who doesn't regard all people as equals and so in his opinion I imagine some are less 'worthy' than others.
However, I'm sure he has seen and experienced things in the Dark Lord's service that might give him nightmares, whether it be during studies of the Dark Arts or things he himself or Voldemort (or even the other DE's) have done.

So yeah, I'm sure Snape has killed people and I don't think it was a big deal for him. This is something you must be prepared for when you choose sides and believe in your cause like both the DE's and the Order members do, it's sorta like a part of the job description - take it or leave it. He might or might not have liked it, but I think he would regard it as a duty and a necessity. It would all be a part of
And Snape has strong reasons and motivation to work for his own cause in the greater picture - his own deep love and need for vengeance. Those reasons should be enough to put other feelings like regret or empathy with his victims aside.

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Hm, those are interesting views. I can see where you're coming from with a non-sad (non-sad? really?) Snape. Not remorseful, that's what I was looking for. Yeah, I see how he would be proud of his DE work, but I also still believe he did have some unhappy feelings toward it. After all, I don't think you can have that kind of love for someone that good without having good feelings.

I think Snape killed people, sure. Both sides killed people, it was something they considered pretty much inevitable. Yes, the Order may have tried to go for capture first while the DEs went to killing first, but the both did. As for when he was in the Order...well, I think he may have had to. But I don't know how he would've felt about it.

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Wow, Eä. I'm absolutely speechless right now. That was quite possibly the best analysis of Snape's character [or characters, as you put it] I have ever read. I applaud you, my dear. I don't think I could have said anything more original than that.

As much as I fancy villains as well, I think I still have to agree with NuMa on this one. While the books 1-6 Snape does not seem to be a remorseful person by nature, I do believe he would feel remorse for Lily's death [as he inadvertently caused it] to some degree. He loved her, and it would be only natural for him to feel guilty and even sorry for her loss.

Now that you [Eä] have expressed your opinion more fully I think I must concede that he may not feel remorse for anything [other than delivering the prophecy] he may have done under Voldemort's service, including killing innocent people.

In a way, this makes Snape a rather selfish and selfless person. He is selfless for giving up almost his entire adult life to helping Harry Potter in his quest to defeat Voldemort whilst remaining loyal to the good cause. But, at the same time, he seems selfish for having remorse only for something that effected him directly.

Speaking of remorse [and this does jump ahead to DH, so you must forgive me] - In DH it is scene in the chapter The Prince's Tale that Dumbledore explicitly asked Snape to kill him at the end of HBP. He says it must be this way so that Malfoy's soul is not maimed. When Snape asks "And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?" Dumbledore replies with "You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation...". We know that in order to heal a maimed soul after murder one must feel remorse. Do you think Snape felt remorse for killing Dumbledore thus saving his soul?

Thank you, thank you Larael *bows*
I'm glad I was able to express my views in an intelligble way, and I must say you and other here have probably helped me along the way. I get inspired and encouraged by you guys all the time to dig a level deeper into Snape's character, which is rather interesting even when we don't agree on our findings there in the black pit!

You see I never fully understood the meaning of that scene with Dumbledore and Snape.
First of all.. I believe any person - wizard or not - will be affected by a murder, especially his/her first time killing or even harming another person. Shock, remorse, bad conscience, regret etc might be some of the effects. 'Maiming' as Rowling uses the term reaches beyond this as it's supposed to be a lot stronger and almost physical scarification of the wizard's soul. Is that correct? And if a person (such as most DE's) keeps killing innocent people without feeling remorse they will sink deeper into the darkness?
When Dumbledore tells Snape he must feel remorse for the killing I can't help thinking of the Catholic concepts of penance and absolution. It's like go kill and then repent your sins and everything will be fine.

What Dumbledore is talking about is an act of mercy, killing him to escape pain and humilliation, a mercy killing if you like. But I sense a playful or even sarcastic tone in Dumbledore's words. As if he mocks Snape for his weakness, for allowing love to govern his rational mind. Or perhaps 'tricks' Snape into helping him have his way - even in death.
I know I'm going out of my own stream of thoughts here...

By the way, is any of you members of HP forums and have you discussed the same topics as we do here?

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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*

Usually I don't agree with most of your views on HP, dearest Gimli, but this time you are expressing what could have been my own words.

I don't think Snape did all the dirty work himself, like you I believe he must have been higher up and therefore played a more strategic/planning part in the hierarchy.

And I want to re-state that I don't think Snape ever took pride in each individual killing he had to do. However, and this may be where we differ in views, I think he might have been proud or satisfied with the knowledge of what he was able to do, the knowledge og his own power and skill. Sort of 'look at my great powers, you scum who taunted and mocked me all my life'.
I think you stress the importance of his 'relationship' with and feelings for Lily more than I do and therefore owe Snape's feelings of compassion to LOVE, where I might go more for the explanation of Snape's sensible and complicated nature where love would only play a part, not the entire part.

I hope you don't feel I have abused and twisted your words, because of the way I understood them and therefore seem to agree with you here.

It could be interesting to have Larael or Nurr's - other Snape + Lily die-hard-shippers - opinions and comments here.

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Nudge nudge wink wink, eh? I feel so awkward coming in here with my measly posts after you guys have these long, thought out things.

I do say I have to agree with Ea on regards to Snape's view of his past. Even though I believe his love for Lily was a driving factor in the things he did, his love for the Dark Arts was nearly as strong. He wanted them. He was fascinated by them. And so, he pursued them. I have no doubt that he got little thrills as he learned new things. They may have been uncomfortable or uneasy thrills, as I do believe there was some part of him that knew he was wrong, but thrills nonetheless.

It does make sense that he wouldn't have been doing the "messy business" so to say. You're right, I can't imagine Snape just walking down the street and casting spells at anyone he saw. So while he may have killed people from time to time, it probably wasn't a big thing with him. And I believe that (at least later on) he would have felt remorse about it.

As to his relationship with Lily. He was in love with her, of course, and I think part of it was because he saw how good she was. He knew he wasn't like that, so he felt that doing other things to impress her would get her to like him. As we know, Dark Arts aren't exactly her thing. But Snape was so blinded by them that he didn't know until it was too late. He knew he was wrong, but didn't care by that point because Lily had turned away from him. For this reason, I think he was able to be a true Death Eater. When he knew that his work was going to get Lily killed, he finally let all his suppressed feelings come up and went back to Dumbledore. He didn't mind what he did as a DE as long as it didn't directly effect Lily.

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Mah brain hurts from all the wonderful ideas in here.

On the subject of remorse and maiming ones soul - I like what you said about murder being an "almost physical sacrification", Eä, because that's what I basically think it is. Rowling presents the idea of killing as an act against nature. We know that with every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, you cannot expect to kill someone and not feel something or have something done to yourself. She personifies this in the splitting of ones soul. Only remorse may counter that reaction.

Snape killing Dumbledore was a "mercy killing" [to use Eä's term] meant to save Draco from doing what he thought was right. Because Snape killed Dumbledore out of mercy I think his soul would be able to remain whole, no matter how angry he was with Dumbledore for branding him a murderer.

On the subject of Snape killing and his ulterior motives - This is where I differ in opinion with all of you. [See JF, you're not the only one. ] Whilst I believe that Snape eventually did not have to do the dirty work as part of the DE, I do think he did have to do that sort of thing to begin with. How else would he have begun to become disenchanted with the DEs and everything Voldemort stood for? He had to kill someone. He had to be in the very thick of it to know that he was in over his head. He had to know what it felt like to snuff out another person's life.

That's how I think of the Death Eater's. They're a hierarchy with Voldemort perched at the very top. Below are his spies and infiltrators, those who dabble in the Ministry and bring him information. Below that would be people like Bellatrix, known criminals who can fight and aren't afraid to get their hands dirty a bit. Then there's the bottom where I believe every DE starts out. Those are the people who get sent out to do the actual killing and torturing; they are the people Voldemort can replace if they end up dead or in Azkaban.

Snape was blinded by the Dark Arts as Nurr said. He wanted a chance at power in the hope of eventually showing up people like James Potter. The Death Eaters gave him a chance to get back at the people who had made most of his life til then a living nightmare. I believe Snape clung onto Lily because she was the one person who had ever shown interest in him, who had actually made an effort to get to know him. She wasn't even afraid to call him her friend. With her he had never felt more valued.

(*feels horrid for not being here in nearly two months...!!*)

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Hey love! Where've you been? We've just been having one of the best Snape-y discussions this thread has ever seen methinks.

(OT so i'll be quick... lol! i started my first semester in public school this August and so i've been dedicating all my time to my studies. I also did a LOT of running about this summer so A-U got shoved to the back burner for a while... but i should be back now.)

[LOVE your sig set, Larael, dearest!]

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Ammy is my sig supplier.
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Yay! That's wonderful to hear. I hope public school has been treating you well. [Thanks very much! ]

Ohmysnape I'm joining

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