Okay, just a warning: there's been a lot posted, and a lot for me to reply to. Get ready for a
really long post
~RinielAranel~ wrote:
MAJOR SPOILERS
I'm going to need to rant.
I'm never going to trust the makers of a sequel again.
Yeah, I didn't like it. What made watching the movie even more heartbreaking was that I had watched CotBP right before we went to the theater. I just love that movie...how the characters, the plot, the music, and especially the characters work so well together. I just hoped more than anything they wouldn't mess that all up in DMC. Well, they did. For me anyway.
Riniel, you have every right and reason to be offended by each of the things you mentioned. As a spoiler hunter, I knew about each of these things many, many months in advance, so I had a bit more time to reconcile them within myself. When I first heard of Jack dying, I was beyond distraught. In fact, I began questioning whether or not this film would be worth seeing in theaters, which is a major thing for me, considering how huge of a fan I am. However, as I thought things out, I decided that it was necessary to the plot and did make for an interesting story line. It's now one of my favorite scenes. Each time I heard a major spoiler like that, I went through just about the same process. It was a constant up-and-down for me as far as anticipation for DMC. However, since I‘ve heard the very same complaints from many people, I'm going to post my own thoughts on each of the four problems. The main reason I'm posting this is that I just want to make my views on them heard. This isn't directed specifically at you.
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1. All the characters traded places. Sure, Elizabeth was rebellious, but I never thought she'd turn pirate. And what's with Jack being good? Honestly. And what they did to Norrington still doesn't sit too well with me. Only Will was the same. Ah, dear Will.
Actually, Ted and Terry themselves have stated that the main characters (Jack, Will, Elizabeth) have not changed at all. The only difference is that the two more pirate-like characters (Jack and Elizabeth...mainly Jack) suddenly have interests that don't always coincide with what the audience thinks is right. (Quick note: I'm not bashing either of the characters; simply pointing out their flaws)
In CotBP, Elizabeth manipulated Norrington to save Will. She promised the man her hand in marriage, then flirted with him a bit (a deleted scene), then dumped him when she got what she wanted. However, the audience wanted her to be with Will in the first place, so they're generally okay with it. She also rebels against her father numerous times and displays a high level of immodesty for that time period, but once again, the audience is okay with it because she's just showing independent thought and "girl power." Even in the beginning when she threatens Beckett with the pistol, the audience in my theater (both times I saw it) seemed generally approving, because she was still on the side of the heroes. That's not to say that Beckett didn't deserve it, but the bottom line is that she played dirty to get what she wanted. Two wrongs don't make a right. However, we move along in the movie, and suddenly she's at it again, but this time it's manipulating Jack. Wait- we love Jack! She can't do that! Suddenly, she's "evil" and "too much of a pirate." Newsflash, people: she was always a pirate at heart. She was simply a pirate whose used her piratey ways to obtain the "right" thing, rather than the "wrong" thing. That's not to say that what she did to Jack was right, but it wasn't out of character. It also had much more psychological and emotional impact on her than the audience has seen thus far. In AWE, we'll start to see the repercussions of her actions.
Jack is much the same. He's always played dirty, and he knows it. As he himself puts it when Will accuses him of cheating: "Pirate." But, once again, his cheating in CotBP (usually) helps out the heroes, so we're okay with it. The very first time we see Jack Sparrow, he sails in on a stolen boat, bribes the harbormaster, steals said harbormaster's purse, then proceeds down to the docks to determine the best way to steal a ship. However, we all find it rather charming and endearing because right now, he's the hero. (Once again, nothing against Jack; his intro is my favorite movie intro of all times...just playing the devil's advocate here). Granted, he redeems himself somewhat by rescuing Elizabeth, but when things go wrong for him, he turns right around to threaten her in order to escape. He then breaks into the blacksmith shop, fights Will in an attempt to escape, then cheats when he realizes that he can't win the fight fairly. That next day, when Will asks him for help in locating the
Black Pearl, Jack will have nothing to do with it until he learns that there's a good chance he'll profit from it. From that point on, he's continuously changing allegiances, always siding with whomever best serves his own purpose. My favorite lines used to sum up Jack's allegiances were, "Whose side is Jack on?" "At the moment...?" In the end, though, his purposes best line up with those of the heroes, so that's who he ends up finishing it out with. Therefore, Jack is a hero in the audience's eyes, even though he constantly over-complicated things for his own benefit and betrayed them on several occasions. Thus begins the "fanon" (love that word...thanks to Surreal_44 at KTTC for introducing me to it) concept that Jack is, after all, a good man. Three years passed after the movie, and this view of Jack continued to grow through fanfiction until eventually it was almost considered a given that Jack was really a good man and would never really endanger anyone. In reality, though, while it may not be Jack's first choice to resort to violence, he's certainly proved that he's not afraid to if cornered. Then DMC hit, and most people were expecting the "good man" Sparrow they saw a glimpse of and built upon. Instead, they got Jack Sparrow, pirate and occasionally good man if it suits his fancy. Suddenly, three years of fantasizing about the character are gone, and we're brought back down to earth about how selfish Jack really can be. This time he's facing an even bigger threat (losing his own soul), and so his reaction is, naturally, even bigger. He starts doing anything and everything he can to get out of it, with very little thought to anyone but himself. The only difference is that now he's throwing an even bigger wrench in everyone's plans, and this time it completely conflicts with the main characters' goals. Not just a slight inconvenience that keeps them from getting home faster while still managing to charm both the characters and the audience, but a huge roadblock that selfishly threatens their very survival. However, that's still very much Jack's character. He can occasionally be a good man if he feels like, but most of the time he's very selfish and uncaring (or at least he tries to be). At the end of DMC, though, when he runs away from the Kraken, Jack hits his limit. As much as he tries to be completely self-serving and independent of any attachment whatsoever, he realizes that he can't just leave. As reluctant as he is to admit it, he does have that honest streak in him, and it does catch up with him. It just takes a very, very long time and some extreme circumstances for it to do so.
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2. WHAT ON EARTH??? Elizabeth and Jack? Gross. And so against character. I couldn't believe they did that, it was so sickening. It just ruined the entire movie for me. I sort of liked it when they were on the island with the chest, but that whole thing ruined it...argh. Orli & Keira were so good together, and Elizabeth and Will were the model couple for me seeing the first movie. I absolutely loved them. Jack is just...eww. I liked Elizabeth so much, but in this movie, I couldn't stand her.
Aye. That's exactly what I thought when we was first told the tale...Okay, couldn't resist that bit of quoting, but it's true. When I first found out, I was mad. I'm very,
very much a Will/Elizabeth shipper, and I don't think that'll ever change. I love the purity and passion of their relationship with one another. To me, they're the perfect couple. However, I'm not going to deny that Jack and Elizabeth have chemistry. Elizabeth -to me- seems to have somewhat of a celebrity crush on Jack in the first film. As she starts to discover the reality of what it is to be a pirate, she loses her naive views of the lifestyle, but that doesn't mean she loses her fascination. To her, he represents absolute freedom, and as much as she loves Will, she can't help but want a taste of that freedom. Jack is the break from her everyday life. She's fascinated by him, but that doesn't mean she loves him. And even though that kiss had incredible passion behind it, I think she was mostly just manipulating his known feelings for her (remember- as we've already established, Elizabeth isn't perfect).
On Jack's side of the attraction, I would again say that he is very attracted to her. However, looking at his lifestyle, I'd say it's fairly safe to say that Jack has a natural tendency to be attracted to anything he's told he can't have. That's not to say that he's not attracted to her for other reasons, but it's certainly a factor to consider. I like how Johnny himself put it when describing the scene in which Jack "proposes" to Elizabeth: a moment of weakness: "Jack realizes that there's a moment when Elizabeth is talking about how she wants to get married and he has that sort of moment of weakness of 'Ah, well…'" It's in Jack's nature to flirt and tease; he can't help it. I know this makes me sound like a horrible Jack-basher (which is far from the truth; he's one of my favorites), and I'm not trying to put him in a bad light, but he's almost sort of vain about it. He's so used to women being naturally and unabashedly attracted to him (even after furiously slapping him, Scarlett and Giselle end up back in his arms eventually) that when he finds a woman who fights the attraction, it almost confuses him. I mean, why wouldn't a woman want
him? He's Captain Jack Sparrow! So, again, that "unattainable" factor comes into play, and he's subconsciously drawn to it like a moth to the flame (hence the "moment of weakness"). He can't help himself. He knows that she loves Will (why else would he give her the compass?), but he can't get past his infatuation.
If it's any consolation, know that Will and Elizabeth do end up together. Right now, they're simply going through some rough times that will eventually serve to strengthen their relationship. Here are the words of Gore Verbinski himself concerning their emotional journey:
"Elizabeth and Will, their love was sort of infantile in the first movie," says Verbinski. "It was very cute and pure and they are growing up. In looking at where we are going to end up in the third movie, I think the second movie is where they have to deal with real issues of love. I think in the first movie it was more storybook love. It was sort of, 'Oh, isn't that cute.' It hits all the traditional buttons, but it doesn't take you anywhere, because it's not that complicated. In the second movie, we are dealing with real life. You deal with jealousy, you deal with how they are going to end up. For them to survive, it's an interesting parallel which gets more elaborated in the third film which is the love story of Davey Jones and why did he pull out his heart? And how that relates to the love story of Elizabeth and Will. I mean, are they same path and are they going to pull out of that nosedive and what's going to happen? It's just important that the love story became more complicated. A marriage has to survive. It doesn't exist in that storybook world." My favorite way of describing it, though, is what my friend on another forum said: "How do you make a man stronger? Make him lift more weight."
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3. Hmm. The bad guys are a cursed group of pirates. Never seen that before.
Aye, but these are different cursed pirates. They had to top the skeletal pirates of CotBP without going
over-the-top, and I think they did that well. Barbossa's crew was cursed entirely by their own doing (it was a personal decision to take the gold), and they deserved it for mutinying against Jack. They were also cruel to start with, thus making them even less likable. The
Dutchman crew is much more tragic. They were all tricked into making the bargain with very little knowledge of how much it would cost them. Jones caught them at their weakest hour -on the verge of death- and offered them an "escape" from the judgment that was sure to come for their less-than-honorable deeds. What they don't realize is that it will cost them more than their servitude; they lose everything that makes them
them. One of my favorite lines from Bootstrap didn't make it into the movie, but it was an excellent description of the curse Jones' crew suffers: "It's the gift and the lie given by Jones. You join the crew, and you think you've cheated the powers, but it's not reprieval you've found. It's oblivion. Losing what you were, bit by bit, till you end up like poor Wyvern here." So yes, they're cursed pirates, just like the first one, but I think these pirates (though Barbossa's crew had lots of character and depth themselves) are a bit more complex as far as their situation.
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4. I think one of the reasons I didn't like the movie was in the 1st one, the world is mostly good; there is a bit of evil that needs extiguishing. I really liked how England wasn't totally evil. A message was how civilization and piracy could co-exist, both being "good". In this movie, it was evil. Did I mention how much I loved Norrington's character (1st movie)? He was built so wonderfully. "[I can resist going after the black pearl] by remembering I serve others and not only myself." So different from the pirates, yet still admirable and understandable. He was so good, in my eyes. Without that good-man-doing-bad-things figure, England wasn't the same.
In the second movie, nowhere was safe. The entire world was dark, and there was only a bit of good, and even that was disappearing in some people. There were very few sunshine shots in DMC. I didn't like that.
Yeah, DMC was considerably darker than CotBP, and it was meant to be that way. CotBP served to aquaint us with the characters, go on an adventure with them, and have everything turn out okay in the end. DMC and AWE serve to deepen each of the characters and put them through some trials. I wish I could say that AWE was going to be considerably lighter, but I can't confidently attest to that. In fact, from what I've read, it's going to get darker before it gets lighter. However, that doesn't mean it
won't get lighter. It simply means the characters have a lot more growing to do. In the very wise words of Samwise Gamgee, "It’s like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end because
how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing this shadow.
Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines, it will
shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you...that meant something."
I have a lot of faith in the writers, which I guess is why it's so easy for me to remain optimistic. Thus far, I've loved everything they've written, and they (especially Ted) seem very confident in how this will turn out. They aren't sure how the audience will react, but they both personally really like the story, and that's what matters to me. As long as the writers like it, I'm happy, because (so far) what they like, I like.
Basically, what I'm saying is don't get too mad till you've gotten the full story. Personally, I'm refusing to pass a final judgment on DMC until I've seen AWE. DMC is meant to be only half of a story, and so it's half a story. There's much to be answered in AWE, and once it is, I think a lot of people will go back and say, "Hey, DMC wasn't so bad, after all." Until then, let's just enjoy what we've got and trust our beloved writers, aye?
Now, with all of that said, one other thing that needs attention
Nauriel Rochnur wrote:
Well, the only readon she really kissed him was to tie him up to the mast. Sure, she probably like it (look at his killer cheek bones!) but I don't think it was out of love. But, now that I think of it, the compass did point to him. That part was kinda funny.
Ah, but nowhere did it ever say that the compass points to your heart's desire. It simply points to the thing you want most, which can be a very fickle thing. Plus, it's never specified
why it pointed at Jack. It could have been that she wanted his freedom, or she saw him as a means of finding Will, or even that the thing she desired most just happened to lie in the same direction as Jack. The reason she gets so upset is that Norrington's accusation shook her up, and she looked to the compass for reassurance. When it didn't point where she wanted it to, she jumped to conclusions. Ted Elliott himself posted on Keep To The Code to make sure we understood the difference between "heart's desire" and "what you want most." I think the fact that he made such a big point out of it means that it's a rather significant difference.
I can't wait for the next one!
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