with all due respect, I agree with Elegost on the democracy issue. it's not that Arwen isn't an awesome admin. I admit that there are polls in the polls section for skins, what we like best about this forum, etc. but what I understand is that it's a big forum. if everyone was allowed to have their say, chaos would be imminent. however concerning democracy, perhaps there should be more polls concerning rules. after we vote, we can give a long feasible explanation for why we voted as we did.

this is a touchy issue, because if Arwen and the mods approach the whole democracy thing the wrong way, "anarchy" could ensue.

ah, well. I was being earnest. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

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Number 1 - well, it's going to happen. We're all human.
Number 2 - I don't think they're fearful to discussions. That thread that you referred to seemed pretty closed up to me. Remember, this IS a LotR forum - debates about touchy subjects should SOMETIMES be removed if they are unnecessary.
Number 3 - Well, it is Arwen's forum. She picked the Mods, and I trust them. If moderators are voted in, it could get dangerous. It would turn into a popularity contest. (And what is popular is not always right.) Arwen picked these Mods on the ability to, well, mod. I'm all for more polls, though. But when it comes down to it, yes, it's an oligarchy here. I know that might sound awful, but I think it works rather well myself. Instead of looking at Mods as a strange, secretive group out to ruin your fun, try thinking of them as members just like you who are trying to keep the forum safe. As Jo once said: "I'm not superior. I just have more buttons to play with."

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<center> all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us


Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

To number 1: Sometimes mods make mistakes, but so do members. So does everyone. We're not here to ruin your fun or to be the bad guys. We're not your parents or your teachers, and we don't find our sole enjoyment in punishing rule breakers. We are your peers, and we're here to help and protect.

To number 2: That discussion was locked because it was just going around in circles. Its been discussed over and over, and beaten so far into the ground that it really wasn't going anywhere. The rules about swearing and acceptable topics of discussion (no drugs, sex, etc) will NOT change, because this is a family-rated forum. If you want to talk about those things so badly, go somewhere else and do it. End of story.

As for number 3, (this is in no way a slam on your forum) your forum is much smaller than this one, so everyone voting for mods is much more reasonable. Here, we already have a pretty full mod team, and we also have so many members that it could potentially turn into a popularity contest when voting for mods. People may not take it as seriously as they need to, and just vote for the person who's name they recognise. When selecting new mods, we spend A LOT of time considering different members. A lot of thought, consideration, and observation goes into the process, and we take it quite seriously.

Thank you very much for your feedback though. Please know that we do take into consideration what members say, and we really do care about you all!

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"...that kind of music in general turns my stomach. It's nice that they do have fans, though." -Nienor

I don't know...I think I sometimes feel the same way about a couple of your points, Ellie...

I think that lately everyone's been feeling pretty uptight about loosing their posts, being cracked down upon about staying on topic [more so than usual, I mean], and just some other changes going on. I've seen way more threads pop up in this place recently than I have in a long time. There are times I have felt that my opinion, and the opinions of others haven't...haven't been...oh I don't know, taken into accord, I guess. I've usually agreed with the changes going on here, I think the Mod Team is doing a good job.

But I don't know my fellow members as well as I used to. In almost every club I'm a member of, we've recieved a warning to stay on topic. It's great that the mods are returning the "forum-chat" to a forum, but the conversation has been so...dry. There are fewer and fewer places I can relax and be myself because every thread has such a specific subject, and I feel that just straying ever so slightly causes a warning.
So basically, I just miss being with my friends, being able to talk with them freely.

So yeah, that little soap box was majorly off-topic, but it had finally swum to the surface of my mind tonight, so I felt I needed to share it. With the A-U Reformation, so many things are changing, almost all of them shocking us by surprise. Not that I'm saying a member's opinion must count -- it's not our forum, so the mods and Arwen get to make the choices, I just thought I'd state that.

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^Thanks Gily!
<By Bubble Black

I agree, Gwen - the ropes have been tightened recently. Yeah, it'll be different, but I guess we'll just adjust...I guess...

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<center> all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us


Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

Speaking here as a member and not as a mod, everyone feels that their opinion matters less than others. I know at times I feel that my opinion matters less than someone elses because I'm not of the majority opinion, and I'm talking about real life as well as online life.
Just because what you do isnt in the lime-light, we still do take notice about what your saying and doing.

Every single thing that happens on this forum we do take every suggestion seriously. Its just some suggestions, no matter how good they are, some just wont fit. That doesn't mean that your opinion wasnt listened to. We do consider everyones idea's

If you feel that you can't 'relax' in a thread, I recomend 'pm'ing people if you have a certain thing to talk to them about. or make a specific thread talking about the thing you want to talk about. Seriously, make a thread have a random weird conversation about if you prefer bread dyed purple with half the crust cut off and soaked in vanilla beans, ask people if they've ever tried it.
Whatever your topic, just make sure your posts count

Now the 'secret mod forum' really do you care all that much what goes on in there? Does it mean all that much to you? Now, I know I'm probably sounding condescending to you, but how do you think you would react to getting abused all the time.
Moderators put up with alot of flack form people. Honestly, just because there is 'moderator' on your name you are instantly surmised as being an uptight pain-in-the-rear fun wrecker.

The moderating team on this forum try their hardest to do the best by the forum and all its members. This forum has flaws, every forum has flaws. Utopia is an ideal that will never be reached. So why poke at the flaws making it worse when oyu can focus on the good bits. My mother gave me good advice once 'dont pick at it, it'll make it worse'

The crackdown recently is to not to tighten ropes around the forum. its to clog up draughts.

I accept constructive cristisism, I do, I understand that you find issues with the way things are on this forum. I'm sure everyone has something that they aren't 100% happy about here.

I hope the voting in moderators system works on your forum, but here its an entirely different story. In this forum moderators are chosen by arwen for a number of reasons.
This is Arwen's forum, so she decided a long time ago that she would choose people that she thinks would up-hold the rules and standards of the board.
Moderators arent chosen on popularity, they are chosen because they have earnt the respect of Arwen and the other moderators already on the team.

I really dont consider myself better or smarter, I don't really care about that sort of stuff. I dont care about popularity or post count. I care about quality, having fun and sharing experiences. Moderators arent power hungry people, we're just regular food hungry people. If we were power hungry we'd eat Arwen.



If you feel you have a major problem on the forum, why dont to send a private message, I feel as though you've posted this thread just to spark arguments. If you wish to gain respect to become a moderator, you arent really going the right way about it.



To all the members on this forum, I'm sorry if you think your opinions have fallen on deaf ears..they havent. We do listen, and we do care.

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We're one world, one people weather we like it or not.. we can pretend we're divided into races and countries.. But the reality is that it is one world and it is one people.

(sorry, that's only my opinion and i don't want to offend you)
I agree with Elegost's and Gwen's points...
MODs have became more and more powerful and rigorous, dunno why, and there are some examples of misusing their privileges. There are TOO many rebukes, reminders to stay on-topic, and that makes the forum... quite stand-offish, wihout any emotions.
I've heard that this is a family-rated forum many times. Good idea, but the censorship is going too far!



Censuring videos in the Rate songs game is one of those things. I think it's completely useless and makes no sense in the long run.

@Jo -A-u is too awesome website, if something is wrong, we all should try to improve it!



Em, i can't agree with that... it's the Suggestions and Comments section, so he've posted his thoughts in a right place... i think...



EDIT>
Remember that those are only my suggestions, and i don't want to start a war or something. As i said before, i trust and respect MODs .

some would say that this is Arwen's forum and she should run it the way she bloody well pleases. others would say that the forum should be in everyone's best interests. I agree that Arwen and the mods are doing their best, but might I make a suggestion?

Concerning the polls, I still stick to what I said above. Perhaps more polls and chances to explain why we think something should happen.

Concerning the up tightness about staying on topic, perhaps we should have sections for the serious discussions and other sections for the lighter ones. Just so we can loosen up and post without worrying about if our post is on topic or not.

that's just my suggestion, but I'll go along with whatever the mods decide in the end.

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Let me reiterate what Jo's already posted, lovlies.



See, we do encourage goofyness and having fun... just not suddenly diving into a discussion between 2 people about boyfriends on a thread about, say Lost.

Okidokey. I love it when people come in with fresh, bright ideas. It's absolutely awesome! But there's a time and a place for everything.

The Cleanup is done, and your posts are now safe! You see, if we'd left in all the junk posts, it wouldn't be fair for all the newbies who came in after the new rule was put into place.
Maybe you'll feel a little more sympathetic about our frustration about junk posts when I'll tell you the best one we discovered...

I'll not say who did that, but you get the idea.

About members voting in new Mods:

Well, it's pretty much been said already that it would turn into a popularity contest. There was once a member, who, to all appearances, was a mature, friendly, helpful and lovely lady, who everyone thought would make an AWESOME mod. However, she had a habit of putting people down, because she was older than they. When rebuked, let's say she didn't take it well...
...That turned into one of the biggest Soap-Operas the Forum ever had.
(And yes, we've had quite a few. )

I think the idea of putting up lengthy explanations as to why new rules have been made is an excellent idea. That's the kind we like, something constructive, and I believe it would greatly help with confusion and upset around the place.

About the video censoring:

That needs to be. What if some disgusting new member came toddling in and posted a *beep* video? We only ask that you not post things that you wouldn't want your 6-year-old kid brother or sister to see. I don't think that's too hard to manage.

However, you need to bear this in mind:

Mods are People too.

*le gashp*

Yes. Believe it or not, I'm a 17-year-old homeschooler in AZ, who loves dogs, jelly beans, and chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream. I also am incredibly typo-prone, I just typed "typed" as tylpe.

It hurts very, very much, when you give so much to what you love, and people then say: "This system is corrupt, you people are mean, uptight, control-freaks, and I have the way things should be run, and you don't!"

Believe it or not, Modding is not a very fun job. Do you think we like rebuking people, who are our friends? I've had to BAN people who were my friends. It hurts. A lot.

Now. Can you, perhaps, see it a little bit from our point of view?

...And by the way, I think the idea of a thread about dyed bread is brilliant.

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[?~^:]
Doll base

I also have to agree with Elegost. I would say about 99.9% of the Mods do there jobs well and I have great respect for them but.....recently I've been getting annoyed with the *patronising* tones of some especially where discussions about the forum have occurred. Point Number 2 is what I am referring to. Unlike the Letter from Admistrator thread, which I agree did run it's course eventually, my thread concerning the missing post counts was locked - even before my questions were answered. Agreed, my post could do nothing to alter the decisions of the Mods but I thought it very, very rude for my questions to be ignored and to be told the same things again and again in a soothing tone. I wa quite willing to continue with the discussion but by the power of the Mods I was not allowed. I still do not see why just because the discussion was apparently *ended* that the topic had to be locked.

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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*

I wish you could all just trust us. This doesn't seem to be the case, and I'm very sorry about that.

When, as mods, we talk about getting hurt, it's because we get a lot of PMs and emails from members complaining. I know that as a forum member (I was a member for longer than I've been a mod) you're not always aware of these problems. The moderators do their best to keep behind the scenes stuff, behind the scenes.
The tightening up of rules was in response to that. We've been trying to sort out the flaws, hold to the rules and take into account member's comments as much as we can.

As for moderator mistakes, how many times do we have to tell you that we are human? That we have lives off the net? That sometimes, after a stressful day in the real world, its frustrating to come home, log on and find a stack of people criticising. It's hard to then not overreact, and I'll admit that sometimes we don't always make the best decisions. I'm sorry, but we're not prefect. We don't intend to come across as patronising, and I might as well take the opportunity to apologise if I have done so. Please believe me, it was unconsciously done.

We have a mod forum so we can vent at times like that, so we can discuss what are the best ways to respond, so we can support each other. So we can plan surprises (I'm talking about pleasant stuff here - new boards, contents and the like) for the members. We need it so we can keep track of the problems relating to the chat and the tagboard.

As for a democracy - no, A-U is not that, because moderators are not elected. To add to what other mods have said about this process, they are picked because they are people the existing moderators and Arwen believe they can work with. Since this is Arwen's forum and she pays money for it, she has a right to choose the people she works with.

When we lock a thread, it does not mean you can't PM us on the subject. We care and we are listening. That is NOT going to change.

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Then do you have any suggestions?



To be honest, the reason why the entire moderating team is on edge and may have 'tones' is because lately we all have been getting people completly breaking the rules, disrespecting us as basic human beings.
I've even had my morals questioned, that wasnt fun. We're getting frustrated with people going on and one about the same thing over and over, and breaking the same rules again and again when we give them second chances.
Understand this from our point of veiw, it really feels sometimes that its a personal attack on ourselves all because we have 'moderator' under our name.


The reason why we close some discussions is because we can see they're just going to go into a bad place. We stop things before they go bad. You may not agree wth our judgement but we try to prevent upsets within the forum.

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We're one world, one people weather we like it or not.. we can pretend we're divided into races and countries.. But the reality is that it is one world and it is one people.

I whole-heartedly agree with Jo.

Lately, I even have had to watch what I say because I feel like I'm under the magnifying glass of the members and I'm being judged for every little thing I do to try and make things better.

I'm mainly around the Club forums since it's the only forum that I really have time for nowadays because of my hectic summer. [Yes, surprise! We do have lives.]

I'm a fifteen-year-old coming highschool sophomore with a new job as a backline cook at an italian restaurant and recently signed for volunteer duty at a summer school program mainly for immigrants from Asia. Lately, I just haven't been able to find the TIME. And I miss the days where I could go around and post in all different kinds of threads and catch up on old times but I can't anymore. And the only real catching up that I have done is on this issue of "Moderators are flawed, we must fix this." or "This is wrong, that is wrong. Our rights are getting taken away!"

At the most, it certainly gives us a bloody headache.

We appreciate feedback but what we would appreciate even more is suggestions on what we could do better, because sometimes what the Moderators come up with when we brainstorm isn't always coming from the angle that the members would like it to be. If we could form new ideas as a team, I think things would certainly be a step better.

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THE HALLOWFEST 2010
<a href="http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20958">information here</a>

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^ By me and my SS *squiggle hugs*

I think Ellie has some valid points, but I don't think that most of it is fair.

Regarding point one, sure, occasionally the mods talk down, but don't we all sometimes. I have found that the occasions they talk down to other members is when they have repeated themselves at least twice [albeit, maybe a different mod] and the other members have paid little or no attention, and kept plugging at the same point, without listening to those in control.

2~ I'm afraid I almost entirely disagree with that. Admittedly, the thread you used as an example was cut short, but it was cut short before it had the chance to turn sour, as it so easily could have done, if it had been left alone.

And to point three; that would not work here, being a democracy, as those before me have stated. This forum is too large to do that. It would, as has been said, desscend into anarchy. It is Arwen's forum, it is her call on how things are done. She could easily just kill the forum entirely and save the hassle.


I think that, with recent changes, the forum has suffered slightly, in that I know lots of people have been made slightly uncomfortable by it all. But you can't leave everything alone, because then things get stagnant. I personally feel clamping down on the 'chatty' convos is a good move, as it condenses things, and means the topic of discussion is close at hand. However, I feel that telling people to 'get back on topic' is a bit harsh if the conversation has wandered from its start point to something else, but still has meat and depth to it.


There was a bit above about 'ropes being tightened'. I don't agree with that. I think it is more of a 'sprucing up'. You know, cutting off unnecessary foliage to let new, better, greener growth out into the open.

I don't feel the mods are 'fun wreckers'. Most of the occasions they intervene with threads are fully justified, as the threads that get restricted are the ones closest to the bounaries of the forum rules. And in my time here I have seen things that I think are spamming, but others thinks is just harmless fun, which the mods have clamped down on now. [note: the post Arsaniel used as an example]

And come on, you have to feel sorry for the mods on many counts, as they are the ones who recieve, and deal with, all our gripes, moans, and complaints. And to make it worse, there are occasions when we complain about the job they are doing. I have no idea what it is like to be a mod, but I am quite sure it is not easy. They carry a lot of responsibilty. Seriously, think about it. Could you honestly say you could do better, in the interests of every member, not just your own. I know I couldn't.
And think of all the good things they have done. I mean, who hasn't enjoyed the 'Summer Suprises' this year? Who wasn't interested, or excited when they heard about all the things that would be going on?

All in all, I think most of the points against the way things are done were mostly unfair. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion, but I think some of this was a little out of line.


[If anyone feels I slammed their opinions during that post, I am sorry, and it is purely coincidental. I read, and listen to everyones opinions, and many valid points were made on either side of the discussion]

A day as a mod of A-U changes drastically from day-to-day. Part of it is you hear about everything bad that goes on on the forum that one is not aware of as a member. You find out all the stupid things people do (eg, the member who posted the same irrelevnat sentence in about 40 different topics), all the sexual perverts who join, the people who have started up A-U-hate-sites, the stories of old mods who rebelled... I don't think we've been receiving death/hacking threats of late so we must be doing something right. But, all in all, I think it makes us more suspicious and paranoid than we might otherwise be. So maybe sometimes we interpret something as negative criticism, rather than constructive criticism, because we've been dealing with the former all morning.

We're also discussing better ways to be less stringent about people going off-topic since we understand members have been uncomfortable about that. As for being more clear as to why threads are being closed, that's definately something we can take on board. Thanks for the suggestions.

If you have a problem with a particular mod, its really no different than if you have a problem with a member. You're welcome to PM a mod about it. It might be advisable to PM a mod you know well/trust/are comfortable with, but you could always discuss it directly with the mod in question or PM the mod account. If its just with the action of a particular mod, PM them and they'll be happy to clarify why they did what they did and amend any mistakes. Unless its a really serious issue, I think Arwen would rather she wasn't contacted - but you'll have to check with her about that.

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