Please don't make us lock this thread, everyone. Some of the comments are way out of hand, and if you bother looking at the rules, you will see very clearly our definition of "bashing" and an example:
No outright bashing
For example, if you want to say you dislike Harry Potter (just as an example!), you're welcome to do so and say why, but please no posts consisting of 'OMG i HATe Harry Potter, i mean, i cant understand how any1 could liek it!'
Exactly what is the difference between the above example and saying she's one of your most hated characters?
At the risk of sounding a little preachy, I'd like to point out that I'm absolutely positive none of you "hate" her. Dislike her, yes. Disagree with the changes in her role, yes. Would have been fine with Tolkien leaving her out of the story, yes. But "hate" is WAY too strong a word for what you're talking about! You hate terrorists who murder thousands of innocent people and you hate truly evil people - like if Sauron were incarnate here on earth. But it's impossible to hate this fictional dudette who has practically zero focus in LotR (yes, even in the movies, she does NOT appear on screen that often).
Eldariel, I appreciate your taking the time to make your points (although again, I dislike the usage of the word "hate"), but if I may make a few counterpoints...?
1) In the books she did absolutly nothing except sit safe at home doing embroidery.
**** That was the typical female Elf role, not an exception. People like Luthien and Galadriel were exceptions. Blame all the female Elves if you want, but it's not just Arwen.
2) She scorned her people as wicked fools.
**** Dumb of her, I agree. But she had never interacted with humans before, and probably didn't know any better.
3) She betrayed her children and went off to mope.
**** Luthien did almost the same thing when Beren died. She pined away of grief and (although she came back thanks to the grace of the Valar) deserted her family.
4) She made Aragorn wait for her about 60 years to marry him. Selfish? I think so. She has forever to live, he doesn't. She waited for him to become king. Do you think she'd have stayed in Middle-Earth if the Ring hadn't been destroyed? No, she'd have gone to Valinor to be safe, she wouldn't have stayed and helped.
**** Blame Elrond for that. He insisted that his daughter marry none other than the king of Gondor and Arnor.
5) Aragorn is her cousin. Can we say INCEST?
**** Again, read The Silmarillion if you haven't already (or look at the hobbit family trees). Almost everyone married a distant cousin. Only very close marriages (such as first cousins zero times removed) were frowned upon. Even Galadriel and Celeborn were related.
6) She regrets her choice of being mortal.
**** Well...death isn't exactly a pleasant experience. But where does she actually say she regrets her choice? If I remember correctly, she says in the appendix only that there is no ship that would bear her hence even if she did want to renounce her choice.
7) She only bears the "likeness" of Luthien - none of her bravery, love, and courage.
**** True. But Luthien was unusual for a daughter of an Elven lord.
Movies:
1) She stole Glorfindel's role.
**** The filmmakers gave her that role. It had nothing to do with the character Arwen or Liv. Don't blame either of them for a choice PJ probably made! If they had been really stupid and replaced Glorfindel with Legolas, would you dislike Legolas too?
2) She stole a lot of screentime from stuff that could have been put in that was in the books.
**** Tolkien said that the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen would have been included in LotR had the story not been hobbit-o-centric. Since the movies are not quite as hobbit-o-centric, I think it makes sense to include parts of the Tale. True, not all the A/A parts had to be added, but I think some are justifiable.
3) What made her think the Wraiths WOULDN'T "Come and claim him"? They are driven by the ring and well, Frodo has the Ring. When they begin to cross the ford, she has a very scared, panicked look. She obviously is afraid of them and underestimated their power and drive. This directly contradicts her earlier statement of "I do not fear them" when, as this scene proves, she is terrified of them.
**** A filmmaker mistake. Not Arwen's fault.
4)"You don't need to put a sword in her hand to make her strong" -Liv Tyler in an interview for the EE. Then why did you? If that is so, then why do exactly that?
**** Don't ask me - I always thought it was a bit of an oxymoron.
5) Would Gandalf or Elrond have told HER of the ring when even Gandalf and Galadriel are tempted by it? No.
**** When does she say she knows about it? And even if she did, wouldn't a descendant of noble Elven lords know the history of the Rings of power?
6) She has known Frodo for all of 20 minutes, the majority of those on his part were spent catatonic and oozey. Why does she cry over him? She doesn't know he has the ring. An example of her highly unstable personality in the films.
**** Maybe because she's just risked her dear immortal life to bring him to safety, and now she's mad that she might not have succeeded. Or maybe she just thinks big blue eyes are cute
No idea on this one. But again, filmmaker decision.
7) There is much made of death and "the gift" of mortals throughout the book and the movies. Then why, when told by her father that Aragorn will die eventually, does she seem so surprised? All mortals die, Aragorn is a mortal, therefore Aragorn will die, to use the old Platonic saying. This can lead to only one conclusion, that Arwen has not really thought out her "choice" as much as she should have and like the child she is, she went and did this impulsively.
**** I didn't interpret her reaction as surprised that he would die - of course she knew she was giving up her immortality and that they would both die! But Elrond portrayed it in such a graphic way to her (and a bit coldheartedly, if you ask me) that the thought of being so alone really shocked her.
8) How can she tell Aragorn "Trust this, trust us" when she herself does not? When she, when confronted with the reality of her choice, runs away at her father's prompting?
**** A filmmaker decision again, but don't you think Aragorn is to blame too? He's the one who started the whole break-up fiasco by giving her the Evenstar back.
9) She is obviously unable to take a hint. When Aragorn "breaks up" with her, she is notably shocked, because she is most likely used to getting whatever she wants all the time.
**** Now that's not very fair
I think she's shocked because he's never shown this kind of desertion-prone behavior before, and she really thinks he cared for her, and can't understand why he would desert her now.
10) "You saw my son." How does she know it is her son? She is nowhere in the vision. More correctly she say ARAGORN'S son. Because he wears the evenstar signifies nothing. Why would Aragorn not give this to his child as a family heirloom to remember their adopted-aunt (which Arwen is, because Elrond is Aragorn's adopted father, thus making Arwen his sister) by?
**** No clue. Can't refute this one, but blame the filmmakers...
11) If she is so beloved by her people, then why is it when she turns back after hallucinating, not one elf even looks or tries to stop her. Figwit just stands there as she goes. For being so very beloved, they sure seem to not care about her.
**** Eh...maybe because they didn't want to make Arwen fight more and put a sword in her hand again
J/k. No idea really.
12) Surely Elrond saw a child in his vision but did not tell her. He had a good reason too. The point would have been silly. He was assuming that his daughter, at 2000 years old, would have enough sense to think Man+woman=baby. She obviously doesn't, which expains Elrond's rather annoyed "Arwen" after her declaration of "you saw my son!"
**** I believe the reason he didn't tell her was that he assumed that would make her MORE eager to be with Ary. Maybe he thought that if he conveniently left out that part, she wouldn't be sure if she and Ary would be together in the future.
I'm not saying I'm even that much an Arwen fan - it was a dumb decision of mine to give this site its current name, but it stuck, and here we are. I think she's a cool girl, but not one of the best characters.
Elu Thingol, your remark "I appreciate her for being one of the characters I most hate in the films.." was pretty out-of-bounds - if you had wanted to politely explain why you dislike her, that would have been fine, but you didn't even check back to elucidate. Again, see our "No bashing" rule.
fbc, that doesn't excuse retorting in an equally angry way or pointing fingers.
Everyone: this, as people have pointed out, is an Arwen appreciation thread. The title says Arwen appreciation thread. The people meant to post here are Arwen fans. Just as you wouldn't start posting on the thread of one of our many Star Wars clubs if you hated Star Wars, it's inappropriate to post negative messages here. If you would like to start a thread for general opinions on Arwen's character (but NOT "Why do you dislike Arwen" or anything similar) and are willing to be rational and civil, by all means do so.
Thank you!
)
I can't tell you much besides that the part was in the Special Features, like I mentioned, and that she was wearing a pink shirt. Probably in the special features of FotR or TTT . . . well, I found her remark strange and interesting - which was why I posted it here - not that I agree with it.
