Wow..I came on here to talk about how excited I am about At Worlds End and I saw this. Sorry for maybe butting in, but I got a few things to say about the whole Jack/Elizabeth situation.

It may have been a bit off of her, but she did what she had to, to save your beloved Will (speaking generally here not singling out anyone). She knew Jack was marked and they'd be hounded wherever they went. If kissing a man that isn't your fiance will help save you him and other people. I know I'd do it without hesitation.

I dont think she planned it so much in advance as to let Will know what she was going to do. Plus she knew Will would likely protest, maybe even try to save Jack himself. She thought on her feet and used her femininity to lure Jack in. She knew it was likely to be the one thing he'd be unable to resist. Not necessarily because it was Elizabeth, but because it was a woman. Any woman could have done that to Jack successfully, he's a total ladies man. We all know this, so why is his flirting with Elizabeth such a shock?

Let the flames...begin.

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I agree completely with everything that Melda said. I don't want want to argue, but I'll just say that I agree with her.

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<center>-In Christ alone my hope is found, He is my light, my strength, my song-

^JF is awesome

There will come a time with no more tears
and love will not break your heart but dismiss your fears</center>

Finally someone who agrees with me! No flames for Phoenix.

And...good grief, y'all posted a lot today! Taking this one thing at a time:

First off, Phoenix pretty much echoed what I've been saying from the start about J/E. I'm by no means for it, and I really do want Will and Elizabeth to end up together, but I'm not totally against a little bit of J/E chemistry here and there. As I've said before, at the end of CotBP, Will and Elizabeth's relationship is essentially, "Hey, you like me, I like you, and wow, you're hot. Let's get married!" That's not to bash their relationship in any way, and it's very sweet puppy love, but it's really just that...puppy love. Now, puppy love can evolve into a much deeper, more meaningful relationship, and that's more or less what the events of DMC and AWE are helping them to accomplish. They're having some troubles, they're facing temptations, and they're starting to think "Hey...what if I made the wrong choice?" It happens to almost every couple at some point, and better to happen before the wedding than after. In the end, however, the trials serve to strengthen their bond. They go from naive, innocent puppy love to "Okay, we have our differences, and we worked them out. I know now that we're not always going to agree. I've looked around, I've seen my options, and I choose you." To me, that's far better than anything seen in CotBP, and if it takes a bit of J/E action to make that happen, so be it.

Concerning the kiss itself...still don't have a problem with it. I mean, it's a bit odd, given that he's old enough to be her uncle (and actually Johnny Depp himself said he felt like the "old perverted uncle" while shooting that scene), but there is undeniable chemistry between the characters. Maybe not as strong as Will and Elizabeth, but there is a degree of attraction that isn't just imagined by the Jack/Elizabeth shippers (granted, some may take that degree and make it seem much larger than it is, but all fiction has a speck of truth). Now, the signature itself, I'm not too fond of (though it may have to do with the fact that I've had troubles with its owner before), but the kiss...leave it. It was a good scene. (Just be glad that none of us are in Elizabeth's position when she finds out "what it tastes like" )

Regarding the Will/Dutchman thing...DD may want to start getting together her pickett signs and anti-PotC paraphenalia, because it happens. I'm usually not so blunt and open with spoilers, but I think this one just needs to be taken care of now. Whether anyone likes it or not, Will is the next captain of the Flying Dutchman. When Tia Dalma tells someone they have "a touch of destiny," she means it. Now, that does not mean that Will becomes the next Davy Jones in any other sense than his rank as captain. Jones' cruelty and malice were his choice and his choice alone. He was once a great, noble man, and he allowed himself to be ruined. "With great power comes great responsibility."

And finally, concerning the overall motivation behind the kiss and what she did to Will, Elizabeth flat-out wasn't thinking clearly. She was in a panic, and she had to act fast. She knew very well (as did Jack) that if he went with them, they would all die. It's my personal opinion that Jack intended to stay with the Pearl of his own volition, but Elizabeth didn't know that, just as Will didn't know why his fiance was making out with another man. All she knew was that she's just seen Jack try to desert his crew while they fought off a beastie that was after him (remember: "Oh, you coward"), and she didn't exactly trust him to do the noble thing this time, either. Obviously she couldn't argue with him (even if he could be swayed, she didn't have time), and she couldn't very well let him doom them all, so she used the only thing she knew was guaranteed to distract him: a kiss. After all of her resistance to his advances, a kiss was sure to catch him off-guard long enough for her to chain him to the mast. It was unfortunate that Will saw it (and even more unfortunate that he took it the wrong way), but in her mind, it had to be done.
She didn't tell anyone afterward because she was so ashamed of what she had done. Jack's last word to her really shook her up: "Pirate." She was a pirate; she'd willingly taken advantage of a man's weakness and sent him to his death (granted, it was to save the lives of others, but the reason doesn't change the deed). Not only is she completely and utterly horrified at what she's done, but she no longer feels like she deserves Will. In her mind, he's too good for her. I don't normally do this, but I have difficulty putting the exact dynamics of the situation into words, so I'm going to let the script do it for me (I'm just too nice to y'all today ):


It all goes back to what I was originally saying: they're in some rough waters right now. They don't trust each other, and they don't trust themselves. In fact, they're furious with each other. They're one step away from breaking up. But they don't. If it's any consolation, this scene occurs near one of the lowest points in the film. Trust me when I say that it gets better, and that what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.


Basically, no hating Ted & Terry until they're done telling their story, aye? You might just be surprised.

*Screams* I can't wait! I can't do it! MAY 25 IS TOO FAR AWAY!

Breathe, Mel, breathe...you are NOT freaked out by this...okay, I'm a little freaked out by this. Still breathing...I can be coherent now.

So you're saying, categorically, that Will becomes the next Captain of the Flying Dutchman. I am okay with this. Yes, I'm okay with it. What I'm NOT okay with is him going all fish-faced, and that doesn't happen, right? Maybe this will be a Davy Jones/Calypso scenario, but it turns out the other way and Davy Jones gets the girl? Am I picking up on this correctly?

On to your next big spoiler - um, I'm a nerd, and that makes me really sad, to see Will and Elizabeth...like that. Is this a confirmed scene? It's not from that fifty-something pages of script that Ted and Terry have said is not accurate except in its essentials, is it? I'm glad to hear it's only a low point in the movie, however, and I'm even happier to hear her say "You thought I loved him." Because unless I'm way off the mark, this means he thought wrong, right? It implies it, anyway.

Don't be so nice next time, you sort of scared me lol *weak laugh*

EDIT: Meldawen, you are such a nerd, you're practically shaking. Don't mind me guys...I've got way too much emotion invested in these movies...

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woohhh *takes off flame-proof clothing*

I'm relieved I'm not alone in seeing it this way either. Somethings aren't a simple black or white, right or wrong answer. There are always shades of grey. Elizabeth did what she had to do, morality or lack there of are irrelevant at this point. She had a choice to make, save lives or (eventually) die. She made the right choice, might not have been the ideal situation. But if it works, it works.

Put yourself in her shoes for just that moment. That briefest of moments to make a decision that can cost one life, or many. Would you rather everyone died or kiss someone?

It's a heavy burden to bear, and I don't believe this was an easy thing for her to do. But it was the right thing to do.

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[quote="pirateoftherings"]

Regarding the Will/Dutchman thing...DD may want to start getting together her pickett signs and anti-PotC paraphenalia, because it happens. I'm usually not so blunt and open with spoilers, but I think this one just needs to be taken care of now. Whether anyone likes it or not, Will is the next captain of the Flying Dutchman. When Tia Dalma tells someone they have "a touch of destiny," she means it. Now, that does not mean that Will becomes the next Davy Jones in any other sense than his rank as captain. Jones' cruelty and malice were his choice and his choice alone. He was once a great, noble man, and he allowed himself to be ruined. "With great power comes great responsibility."

[quote]

*coughs* what? then that measn something is going to happen to Davy, great, always, the villian just has to die, normal...rawr, not in a good mood now...

Phoenix, Well, I can understand why she did it. However it's still Very hard for me to move past it. I totally understand that she had to do it to save everybody but it just seemed more and more like she enjoyed it. That certain spark in her eyes, I didn't care for. She enjoyed it just a little too much. I know good and well how good looking Jack is but she still should have kept a bit more grounded. Just my opinion.
As for guilt I think that she should feel that way. I mean if you do something wrong but for the right reasons you still do and should feel guilty. (shrugs) Which I'm still not so sure that it was just to save the others...
I just can't help but feel that way. (shrugs)
May I also point out that the compass (that tells your heart's desire) when in Elizabeth's hands pointed to Jack? That tells me that she really feels attracted to Jack and acting upon those feelings (even if supposedly for the right reasons) makes her unfaithful to Will.

Wow, Pirateoftherings, is on a roll tonight. Thumbs up to you for writting all of that. Oh, and thanks for the spoilers there.
Okay, I've said what I have to say for now on the kiss. So as far as the Will as the next captain of the Dutchman. I can't beleive that they're going to do that. I'm not sure what to make of the way you put it though. You make it sound as though he's just going to have control over it and not become the next Davey Jones. I'm not sure that I would throw such a major fit on that. However if he does indeed become the next Davey Jones the picket signs are a coming up!
As I have said many a time, I just really want to see him end up happy and if possable still to some point a Very good "person". I also want to see him with a nice girl. Otherwise the picket signs might come up.

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Destiny I'm a Christian boycrazy girl. Will Turner's wife ^&? Avatar by JF, banners by Taurquende, Nurrantiel Mashiara, Silme Meleth TarNymphadora, and JF taught me how to use banners. Thanks to all!

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It's a scene designed to surprise and shock many (if not all). The writers did there job.

I don't see the huge deal about how much she appeared to enjoy the kiss with Jack, potr made some very valid points in her post (which was awesome btw) regarding this. She kissed Jack because she knew deep down it was the only way to distract him. It was a kiss out of necessity, no matter how it may have looked. Should she feel guilty? Absolutely, she condemned a man to death and did it in a way which probably surprised her and made her feel at the very least awkward.

I truly believe she loves Will, but she is torn. The excitement Jack represents is truly a temptation. She's only human, after all.

If she stays with Will, this will only serve to make her relationship with him all the stronger. Because if you can get past something like that, you can get past anything.

At the end of it all, she saved lives. Which by rights should outweigh one stolen kiss.

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About the kiss


About Will's feelings


The final scene in general



^ There's the words straight out of the writers' mouths concerning the situation (from the commentary on the DVD). Essentially what I've been saying about the kiss. Did she enjoy it? Yes. Did she feel guilty for having feelings for Jack? Yes. Did she do it for Will? Yes. Another semi-related quote I have from Ted about the situation is something he himself told us (us being me and some of my mates on that forum) when we were discussing the significance of the compass occasionally pointing to Jack while in Elizabeth's hands and Jack's being "vexed" by Elizabeth:




So basically, yes, Elizabeth's attracted to Jack. There's no denying that. But just because she kissed him once does not mean that she and Will are doomed, or that she and Jack are "forever." I absolutely love their description of what she does: "Slake her lust, drown her guilt, and save the man she loves."

*shrieks and runs in circles*

PotR, I think I love you to death right now, but I'm going nuts. This all so much to take in!


PotR has pretty much brought me around... the kiss was still... more graphic than I like... but I suppose she had to do it. I think really my main problem always was that she didn't explain it to Will.

Will the captain of the Dutchman? Agh, that's... crazy. I really have no idea how that will work. Woah... woah... alright Altariel, breath, breathe, breathe... *shrieks again*

PotR, you have a definite way of changing my feelings. *hugs* *shrieks again*

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<center>-In Christ alone my hope is found, He is my light, my strength, my song-

^JF is awesome

There will come a time with no more tears
and love will not break your heart but dismiss your fears</center>

^^...^
*not saying anything*

Okay. That's your opinion. I still don't like what happened and I really can't accept explanations for it.

*walks away*

Is it just me or did the conversations between the directors make me ANGRIER?

agggggggg...don't say anything...

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<center> all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us


Thank you for five-plus wonderful years of obsession, friendship and fun

How'd it make you angrier, RA? They're essentially telling us that everything's going to be okay.

I mean, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I just really don't see how it's that horrible. If anything, I think it'll serve to prove just how merciful and forgiving true love is.

I'm with RA, though...it all seems as though it's pointing to W/E - but give that to a J/E shipper and they'll turn it right around! It's driving me nuts!

I'm with you, AF! Breathe, breathe!

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Again I have to ask the question.

What would you have done in that exact situation?
With very little time to decide what to do and how, with lives at stake.

Elizabeth feels guilty for the kiss, mainly because she enjoyed it too much. But doesn't that tell you something. If she didn't love Will as much as she does, there would be no guilt. No remorse for her actions.

What J/E shippers think should bear no relevance to how you feel, it doesn't change what you think and feel.

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OK, last night after reading all that I wasn't exactly thinking clearly (my mom was staring at me because I was shaking), but now I can actually say something coherent (I hope).

Basically, I wish the kiss hadn't been in there. I wish that there was some other way, any other way, to accomplish what they needed to. However, now that it's in there, I'm going to try to make the best of it. I find it regrettable that it's in there, but I no longer really think Elizabeth was wrong. When you look at it in the black-and-white terms of "if she didn't kiss him they would all die..." it would seem ludicrous for her to do anything else.

So... I wish it wasn't there, that they had some other way, but I'm going to deal with it. I hated Elizabeth for months and months after seeing DMC, and I still don't like her, but after everything I've heard about AWE I feel a little better about her. But she still doesn't deserve Will.

*takes deep breath* So, basically, I'm willing to forgive a lot because it's a PotC movie, and I love PotC to death. But really, I think Elizabeth did the right thing... there alone. She should have told Will afterwards. However, perhaps that makes her more human, that she would make mistakes.

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<center>-In Christ alone my hope is found, He is my light, my strength, my song-

^JF is awesome

There will come a time with no more tears
and love will not break your heart but dismiss your fears</center>