Author |
Message |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 12:41 pm |
|
Joined: 02 October 2006 Posts: 2145 Location: the south, USA
|
(deep breathe) Okay, I'm ready to talk again.
piratesoftherings, Thanks alot for the quotes from the commentaries.
[/quote] And, as long as I'm breaking silence on the compass, let me just say: there's no transference. If it points to a waffle, it's not pointing to the waffle because you're hungry or because you really want to be Belgian or something; it points to the waffle 'cause what you want most is that waffle.
Of course, if you've been hungry for a while, anticipating the most delicious meal you could ever imagine, and for some reason you couldn't partake of that meal, and then you found yourself in the presence of a very interesting waffle ... well, that doesn't mean that you suddenly think the aforementioned meal would not be delicious. It just means that, right then, that waffle seems pretty tempting.
Does that make you a terrible person?[/quote]
^ This right here is what I would like to make my comment on. (deep breathe) That compass points to what you want then and there. Well, it pointed to Jack when in Elizabeth's hands early on and then latter swayed back and forth between Will and Jack. That tells me that even when given the option to want Will right that moment she wasn't so sure that Jack really wasn't what she wanted. That worries me.
It seems to me that what they are saying is that just because you would want the "waffle" (Jack) wouldn't mean that you didn't want the "meal" (Will), correct? Well, Miss Elizabeth as far as I'm concerned went and ate part of the waffle but certainly still wants that meal. Maybe she just wants them both, aya?
Then once she went and had that little taste of waffle that meant that (reasons good or bad) she acted upon unfaithful feelings. Well, the problem with that is that men really aren't food. You can't have them both. (shakes head)
Phoenix, Well, if you really truely want to know what I would have done here goes...I would have thrown the biggest fit ever imaginable. I'm good at that.  I think that Elizabeth stormy around and yelling odd things and then grabbing and chainging Jack (as fast as she could have) might have worked. Just my opinion.
Well, when somebody cheats on their other most of the time they feel guilty for it. That doesn't allways mean that they love that person. Sometimes it just means that it's againts their morals or so forth. Or also it could mean that they are afraid of the other finding out and possabley losing them. Some people just want both worlds and perhaps for the time being Elizabeth is one of those people. I don't like that and I don't seem to be able to condone itin Elizabeth's case.
~RinielAranel~, I argee with you 100%. 
_________________ Destiny I'm a Christian boycrazy girl. Will Turner's wife ^&?  Avatar by JF, banners by Taurquende, Nurrantiel Mashiara, Silme Meleth TarNymphadora, and JF taught me how to use banners. Thanks to all!
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 12:59 pm |
|
Joined: 01 June 2006 Posts: 8449 Location: Adragonback
|
 I was practically shaking too, AF
I agree with what you said, though. I didn't even care when Barbossa came down the stairs at the end of the movie, I was sitting there going, "Tell him what happened...tell him...tell him..." and Will just about broke my heart when he talked about going to rescue Jack. But that said, I guess there wasn't much else to do than kiss him - but if it alienates her from Will, is it worth it? She kissed Jack to save Will, but what if Will now isn't so sure about her It's so confusing...
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 1:52 pm |
|
Joined: 29 August 2006 Posts: 5815 Location: Dancing under the stars in Lorelindorenan
|
Melda, you're echoing my feelings again. See, I had never even considered for a moment before last night that maybe what Elizabeth did was OK... so now I'm like "I think it was right... but Will! But she had to... but Will! But they would have died... but it was immoral!" Argh...
Maybe this just proves that DMC is a better movie than I thougt, if it makes me think this much!
_________________ <center> -In Christ alone my hope is found, He is my light, my strength, my song-
 ^JF is awesome
There will come a time with no more tears and love will not break your heart but dismiss your fears</center>
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 2:27 pm |
|
Joined: 14 September 2006 Posts: 1392 Location: Minas Tirith
|
Elizabeth, IMO, wasn't exactly doing something wrong when she kissed Jack. True, she did feel somthing for him, but she did it to save Will and the crew. The one thing I can't justify is her bringing about his death. Sure, it was necessary, but there must have been some other way to get him to stay.
_________________ <center> .nph ftw.
[!~^$=+?]</center>
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 3:14 pm |
|
Joined: 01 June 2006 Posts: 8449 Location: Adragonback
|
Well, as is the opinion of some, Jack may have been meaning to stay anyway. But Elizabeth couldn't trust him, could she? Not after he'd abandoned them to fight the Kraken - for HIS sake, I might add. Even though he came back, I don't think she felt she could say "Jack, either we can all die, or just you can die. Could you stay here, please?" and have him actually do it.
Also, as someone pointed out (I'm too lazy to go see who) she really wasn't thinking clearly. I mean, they'd just got attacked by a huge many-tentacled sea monster and she knew that it was coming back. Soon. So maybe, thinking back on it, she foung another way - but she needed to act. Fast. And I don't think she was really considering the repercussions, like what would happen if Will saw, and I don't think she quite realized that she was effectively killing Jack. But she still did it, and there it stands, and it may have been the only way to save them but she's going to have to account for it in AWE.
And I really hope she gets Will back. Cause she's never gonna find a better guy.
EDIT: Wait a minute, what did I just say there? I think I just changed my own opinion... 
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 3:46 pm |
|
Joined: 11 August 2005 Posts: 18717 Country:
Gender: Female
|
Drew, thanks for answering my question.
How would throwing a fit work? Jack had to be the sacrifice to save everyone else. There was no other choice. Stomping around and pouting really isn't going to help when at any given moment the Kraken was about to attack. Elizabeth didn't have the luxury of time or hindsight to make a more level headed decision on how to keep Jack on the ship. She did what she had to do, by acting on impulse she saved Will and everyone else from suffering the same fate as Jack. You may not have liked how she did it, but she did and she saved them.
Why didn't she tell Will?
Things happened so quickly I don't think she's had time to do much thinking on exactly how she would tell him. She also doesn't know Will saw the kiss and has taken it out of context. You could say she's waiting for the right moment, or perhaps thinks keeping it to herself will be best, so as not to hurt him. She's only human, she has done and will continue to do foolish things. That's part of the reason I like her to be honest. She's flawed, she makes mistakes. She isn't Little Miss Perfect.
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 6:46 pm |
|
Joined: 02 October 2006 Posts: 2145 Location: the south, USA
|
Phoenix, First of all you're welcome.
I think that confussing him (by saying crazy things and throwing a minute fit) and then just jerking his hand and chaining it might have worked. Least wise that's probabley what I would have done. If it wouldn't have worked...then I and all of Will's fans...should just be glad that it was Elizabeth instead of me.
As for why she didn't tell Will. I agree that she probabley thinks that it's best to keep it to herself and agree that she probabley doesn't think that Will saw the kiss. However I'm not so sure that she's doing it to protect Will's feelings. I think really that she's just worried about him getting mad or her losing him. Which goes back to my theory about her wanting both worlds. Also I don't think that Will has taken it that far out of context.
Okay, on the last bit...I don't think that only kissing the man who you are engaged to is perfect. Is loyality perfection?
_________________ Destiny I'm a Christian boycrazy girl. Will Turner's wife ^&?  Avatar by JF, banners by Taurquende, Nurrantiel Mashiara, Silme Meleth TarNymphadora, and JF taught me how to use banners. Thanks to all!
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 7:12 pm |
|
Joined: 11 August 2005 Posts: 18717 Country:
Gender: Female
|
I agree there's part of her that doesn't want to upset Will. But isn't that protecting his feelings anyway? I don't think she wants to lose him, so by staying quiet and not letting on what happened she feels she's saved him a lot of heartache. Obviously she doesn't know that Will saw, so his feelings are already hurt.
Will has taken it out of context simply because he doesn't know the reason to why Elizabeth did what she did. He only seen the kiss, not what led up to it. He can't read minds, so he didn't know what Elizabeths motivations were.
Does she want the best of both worlds? Possibly, but again I say she's only human and to be tempted is to be human.
When I mean flawed I don't just mean the kiss, I mean in general. She breaks the upper class girl stereotype.
I thought of another question.
What about Norrington? Why was it okay for Elizabeth to run off with Will after accepting the Commodores proposal of marriage. Wether for convenience or not. Why was it okay for her to lead Norrington on, all the while wanting to be with Will. I'm not trying to paint Elizabeth as the bad guy in all of this, but it seems that it's okay for her to want to be with someone else whilst engaged to be married, so long as it's Will.
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 7:31 pm |
|
Joined: 02 October 2006 Posts: 2145 Location: the south, USA
|
^ Yes, not telling about her and Jack kissing (had he not have seen the kiss) would have protced his feelings but maybe not in the long run... Yes, his feelings are indeed hurt.
Will saw them kiss and he probabley thinks that Elizabeth kissed Jack and that Elizabeth might want Jack. So all of that happened so it's not 100% out of context.
Exactly! It's Not right what she did to Norrington either. She did nearly the same thing to him. She's just not a loyal person. She wasn't loyal to Norrington, to Will, or to Jack. That's one of the reasons why I dislike her.
_________________ Destiny I'm a Christian boycrazy girl. Will Turner's wife ^&?  Avatar by JF, banners by Taurquende, Nurrantiel Mashiara, Silme Meleth TarNymphadora, and JF taught me how to use banners. Thanks to all!
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 7:51 pm |
|
Joined: 11 August 2005 Posts: 18717 Country:
Gender: Female
|
Now you see what I mean by a flawed character lol
From Will's POV it is out of context, because he doesn't have the full version of the story. He has assumptions based on what he saw, not cold hard fact. Wether Elizabeth has some sort of attraction to Jack doesn't factor into it, because Will doesn't know why it happened.
What we know and what Will knows are too seperate things. We as the viewer know what happened and why. Will doesn't.
I think what she did to Norrington was actually worse, she wasn't doing it for anything other than her own selfish desires. The kiss with Jack was something she knew she had to do to save lives. It may have been in the eyes of many the wrong way about it. But she did what was necessary and what she knew Jack would respond to.
I have another question..(sorry I seem to be full of them tonight)
Why is it worse for her to kiss someone, rather than to send a man to his death?
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 8:08 pm |
|
Joined: 02 October 2006 Posts: 2145 Location: the south, USA
|
Yes, indeed she is very flawed. We are in total agreement there. lol
As for the context thing, I can't say anything without merely repeating what I have said in my last post.
I'm not sure that what she did to Norrington was worse or not. As I have said that what she did saved lives she still enjoyed it and therefore in my opinion that made it wrong. To me she did all three wrong. Though Norrington and Will were the ones that she treated the worse. Between Will and Norrington I don't know who she treated worse.
It's allright that you have alot of questions tonight. I feel worse about her kissing Will because though there are other reasons why she may have kissed him, she still made a commitment to Will and I think that not kissing other men is a part of that commitment. What I'm saying is that there are other possable reasons why she kissed Jack and I certainly think that they came into play. Where-as she had to kill Jack Only to say others. In a self and other defense, I supose is what you would say. Unless she really just killed Jack so that she would no longer be tempted by him...I don't think that that's why she did it. Now if she killed for that or a similar reason then I might think that that was worse. I'm not saying that what she did to Jack was really right because in my opinion it wasn't. She betrayed his trust and played with his feelings. She did Norrington, Jack, and Will all wrong.
Do u think that there were other reasons why Elizabeth killed Jack?
_________________ Destiny I'm a Christian boycrazy girl. Will Turner's wife ^&?  Avatar by JF, banners by Taurquende, Nurrantiel Mashiara, Silme Meleth TarNymphadora, and JF taught me how to use banners. Thanks to all!
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 8:32 pm |
|
Joined: 11 August 2005 Posts: 18717 Country:
Gender: Female
|
Ah, but she also made a commitment to Norrington before she decided to run off and be with Will. No lives depended on her being with Will, yes she did love him. But she still did what she did, despite being engaged.
Wether or not she enjoyed it, wether or not it was to save the lives of others. She still sent a man to his death, yet her kissing said man before he died is deemed a worse crime than actually chaining him up so as to prevent him from possible escape, which inevitably leads him to his death.
Another possible way of looking at the kiss was to make sure she was with the right man. If she's having doubts surely it's best to find out before the wedding ring is on your finger? It would be far, far worse if she and Will were already married.
To be honest I'm just playing Devils Advocate. I have no real strong feelings either way. The topic really intrigues me and I'm really enjoying discussing it with people
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 13th, 2006, 11:12 pm |
|
Joined: 03 June 2005 Posts: 5928
|
I'm still with Phoenix on this one, and thank goodness someone else finally brought up Norrington! In my opinion, her crime against Norrington was not breaking the engagement, but rather accepting it in the first place and getting his hopes up. If she truly did not love him (which she didn't), she shouldn't have accepted in the first place, even if it was to save Will. It's very likely that if she had simply asked it, James would have complied out of his love for her. However, I don't think there's much use in determining which one she wronged more, because in the end, she's wronged them all in their own ways. But, if you'll notice, there is a definite trend here: she does it all to save Will (even her own "betrayal" of him is an attempt to save him from sharing her burden). And no matter how terrible her deeds, that should be of some comfort that through it all, the center of her focus is saving and protecting Will (at least, if you ship W/E  ). Slake her lust, drown her guilt, and save the man she loves.
And aye, I rather enjoy playing the Devil's Advocate as well, Phoenix. On another forum I'm on, there's a very large J/E following, so there I most ardently ship W/E (but still acknowledge the presence of J/E), whereas here I actually enjoy arguging slightly on the J/E side (not pro-J/E, just not totally against). Basically, I provide ballance wherever it's needed.  I really don't care as much about who ends up with whom; if, by some miracle, Ted & Terry can pull off an amazing J/E ending that stays true to all of the characters (unlikely), then so be it; I might not be as happy as I'd be with W/E, but I'll be content.
And actually, in my opinion, the most fun ship remains Beckabeth, and I don't care what anyone else says. "Come on, form an orderly line! I'll have you all one by one!"

|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 14th, 2006, 9:53 am |
|
Joined: 11 August 2005 Posts: 18717 Country:
Gender: Female
|
That's the reason why I'm posting the things I am in this thread. Not to be argumentative or to have a go at anyone, but to help strike a balance in the discussion. I'm neither pro-J/E or pro-W/E. So long as it's written well and acted well and makes sense within the story.
_________________ 
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 14th, 2006, 11:45 am |
|
Joined: 29 August 2006 Posts: 5815 Location: Dancing under the stars in Lorelindorenan
|
And I appreiciate you two acting as balance. I'll admit that we need it.
_________________ <center> -In Christ alone my hope is found, He is my light, my strength, my song-
 ^JF is awesome
There will come a time with no more tears and love will not break your heart but dismiss your fears</center>
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|
Post subject: Posted: December 14th, 2006, 1:04 pm |
|
Joined: 02 October 2006 Posts: 2145 Location: the south, USA
|
Phoenix, She totally made a commitment to Norrington and to leave him was an aweful thing for her to do. No rebutal there.
Yes, it sent him to his death and yes her kissing him is usally deemed a worse deed. However there are reasons for that which I have allready stated.
In my opinion if she was having doubts about her relationship with Will, she should have talked to Will about those doubts. I don't think that she should have just ran off and and laided one all over, of all people Jack. However best she did it before the wedding rather than after (as you said). I'm not sure if they had divorces way back then.  Which if it keeps going like this that might have been what would have been needed.
Well, I do have very strong feelings especialy on certain aspects of PotC and certain characters and I love to debate them. Though I love to debate all the way around. Otherwise I don't think that I would be on AU.  I just love to share different opinions and points as to why we think such.
piratesoftherings, I'm still not 100% sure that it was all for Will alone. She (at least to me) seems some what of an out for me kind of person. I can't help but feel that way. Sorry.
Uh, who is Beckabeth (if you don't mind my asking)?
pirateoftherings and Phoenix, we certainly need some balance on here, So I thank ye for adding a little here. Plus without other opinions put out there we wouldn't be able to debate them and that probabley wouldn't be a good thing.
_________________ Destiny I'm a Christian boycrazy girl. Will Turner's wife ^&?  Avatar by JF, banners by Taurquende, Nurrantiel Mashiara, Silme Meleth TarNymphadora, and JF taught me how to use banners. Thanks to all!
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Who is online |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Boyz theme by Zarron Media 2003
|
|