Actually yes, by "his position in DH" I meant that when Harry does enter Hogwarts for the first time Snape is fully aware of him, he has even gone so far as to vow to protect him. But, I like what you said about how Snape "[had decided] to hate [Harry] already". That makes complete sense and goes along with what I was talking about earlier. Snape has had reason to hate Harry for a very long time [no matter how indirectly], starting with the fact that James bullied and teased him.

So yeah, I think we both agree that his hate was justified in the sense that it stemmed from being bullied by Harry's father, yet it's also unjustified because of the fact that Harry really wasn't the one to do the bullying and teasing in the first place. [However, as the books go on we find that Harry is not always blameless in this respect.]

[on the article]

Aye, I can sympathise with Snape as well. It'd be tough to suddenly learn that after all you've done to protect this one kid, whom you don't even like, he's still going to die. If I were Snape I be mad as anything.

Anyway, that aside, I think I can say that Dumbledore is not a singularly evil character. His motives, which included risking other peoples' lives for the "greater good", are not quite in the right place to me, and I've found that although Harry did succeed there were many chances for failure as well. Dumbledore spends all of his latter years preparing Harry for the fight of a lifetime against someone whom he really has no chance against [magically speaking], and then he dies, leaving Harry to fend for himself.

Basically, what I'm saying here is that Snape's motives which help Harry surpass Dumbledore's in my opinion. Dumbledore relied heavily on chance, which could have ultimately cost him [and the entire wizarding world] everything.

Yes, Harry does break a lot of the school's rules (like James did). He is not just an innocent kid. On the other hand people can change and act as they are expected to. Harry knows Snape hates him so why bother to even try and please him. However, Snape is suppoed to be the adult and act accordingly and professional. The way he treats Harry here is almost pathetically inacceptable. He is supposed to 'know better' and act above that primitive level of letting his aggressions and frustrations over a failed life (love) out on a third part. But when this is said, I'm not expecting him to be able to do that really.. he is only human.

Concerning Dumbledore, I think I'd rather say he is not an entirely good character, and even that is to be too judging. Dumbledore is a warrior and he is willing to risk other peoples' lives - but he is also prepared to give his own life for the cause. And yes we do get a lot of new information on him in DH about sides we didn't know of before. Hmm.. sometimes he reminds me vaguely of Saruman. I don't see Saruman as turning 'evil' when he joins Sauron, but perhaps trying to work for the greater good in Middle-earth thorugh other channels and strategies. Dumbledore sees only the goal.. and the means to get there is for him less important I think.

I'm not sure I agree on you when you say Dumbledore relied on chance.. or it might have looked that way, but I'm sure he had a plan B and C...

I just remember you asked about Snape's favouritism towards Slytherin, and my best guess is that he simply is quite an unsympathetic teacher and wants to see 'his' students better than everyone else. As you pointed out earlier, Snape did call Hogwarts his home and Slytherin was his house, he may have a special attachment to the place and the values of Slytherin House.

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Quite right once again, Eä. When you think on it, Snape really has some issues to work out. Many of the taunts and bullying that come from him are a biproduct of what James did to him. Basically, he holds grudges far too long and that hurts him. He's supposed to act the adult in this situation, yet I think even the idea of Harry [who is ultimately James in Snape's eyes] brings back those old insecurities. Naturally, this insecurity just makes him angrier and makes him act in ways that are not expected of him. As you said, he is only human.

Actually, I think of it rather differently. To me, Saruman's choices led him to Sauron because of the lure of power. Sauron had it, and Saruman wanted it. Dumbledore's motives are very different. He wants the world to be rid of Voldemort, which is a positive, but it does not really matter who dies to achieve it, which is a negative. It could go either way I think.

Oh yes, I'm sure he had a plan B and C, but how well did those turn out? If you remember from DH, there was a huge flaw in the plan that just barely kept Harry alive. When Dumbledore died not everything happened as it should have, and I think that is where he most relied upon chance. The only other reasoning I have is that Dumbledore had a very good knowledge of peoples' minds and their actions. What if Snape had been killed whilst Harry wasn't around and he hadn't had the chance to tell him all he needed to know? So many things could've gone wrong...

Even before DH, Dumbledore relies not on chance this time, but on the idea that Harry can survive anything. What if Harry hadn't made it out of the Chamber of Secrets? Or what if he'd been killed in the graveyard in GoF?

Anyway, before this turns into an all Dumbledore discussion I'll end with a thumbs up for your last few comments. I really have nothing else to add to them as that was exactly what I was thinking.

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Ammy is my sig supplier.
The Poetry Project.
Inwe's Facebook

Quite alright Inwe.. I haven't been much around either and I don't think I have much to add to Larael's last post.

I had an idea of why I introduced Saruman in this discussion but I forgot why. It was pretty clear when I wrote the post but it slipped again. I guess all he and Dumbledore had in common was the wisdom the power and the visions.
And I think Dumbledore really believed harry was the Chosen One, he who would defeat Voldemort, so he wouldn't die in vain.

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So, Dumbledore had a lot of faith in Harry then? I can definitely agree with that statement, however I'm still not sure how concrete even Dumbledore's plans for Harry were.

Lol. Since we completely branched off from our main discussion [which is totally okay!] I'll post the next discussion later today.

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Ammy is my sig supplier.
The Poetry Project.
Inwe's Facebook

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Ammy is my sig supplier.
The Poetry Project.
Inwe's Facebook

Inwe, you've no idea how happy you're post just made me. It's true, I've been having an extremely tough week, but it is slowly getting better. I may take a few more days off even though it's half-term for me, but I promise I'll have something up by Wednesday or Thursday. Keep the Snape-y love coming! *huggles all*

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Ammy is my sig supplier.
The Poetry Project.
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WOOt! So, we are back bigger and better than before everyone! Get ready for some more discussion!

Philosopher's Stone - Chapter 10: Halloween

[The trio has just knocked out the mountain troll, and the teachers have just arrived. Professor McGonagall has just asked them why they were not in their dormitories like the other students.]



Topic Discussions/Questions:
- Do you think Snape was using Legilimency in here? [evidence: eye contact]
- Would Snape use Legilimency on other students? Is Harry a "special case" since he is supposed to be protecting Harry?
- In OotP and HBP the use of Legilimency against a student [especially Harry] is shown by the vision appearing to "swim before [their] eyes". Based on this observation are the past answers to previous questions in this discussion plausible.

So, basically... let's talk the mechanics of Legilimency!

Other topics/questions?

I'll be on later... i'll have more time and can discuss then...^^

- Do you think Snape was using Legilimency in here?
I think its quite possible, now that i've read the entire series, because we focused, it seems, more on the appearance of things through the first three books but when it got to the fourth and fifth we began to see that everything has two sides. Am I correct? I think Snape could be using Legilimency, that is very possible and probable.

- Would Snape use Legilimency on other students? Is Harry a "special case" since he is supposed to be protecting Harry?
I think Harry was a special case, honestly. Maybe its just wishful thinking but I dont think Snape would use Legilimency on students without Dumbledores consent. But there is also the fact that he loved to see Gryffindors get punished so he could read their minds and take points from the house as well. I still think it is the special case, option. Just because i love Snapey and know hes nice and... fluffy... under all that black grease... ^^ xD!


- In OotP and HBP the use of Legilimency against a student [especially Harry] is shown by the vision appearing to "swim before [their] eyes". Based on this observation are the past answers to previous questions in this discussion plausible.

Wow. Thats deep. I'm gonna have to get back to you on that one... just lemme get my thoughts together... O.o *Headdesk*

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Ammy is my sig supplier.
The Poetry Project.
Inwe's Facebook

I really like your answer to the first question, Inwe. Your absolutely spot on with it. The first 4 books are written from Harry's point of view if I'm not mistaken, and the last 3 give glimpses of other characters as well. I completely agree with the notion that as JKR moved on to writing from another character's [besides Harry's] pov she also took the time to make other elements of her story "2-sided", as you said.

As for the second question, I agree once again. I definitely believe that once Snape was set on aiding and defending Harry he did nothing else that would jeopordise his position. If I remember correctly however, it seems that in HBP Snape attempted to use Legilimency against Draco who had become very skilled in Occlumency. Otherwise, I think Harry was entirely the "special case".

*creeps in and stands in corner*
Welcome back Larael, it's good to see you again and I hope everything's going better in your life.

I am really sorry but I can't reply to the questions before the weekend. I wont have the time for it until then. Of course if you want to, you can go on with the discussion or start a new. I'll catch up with you guys when I return.

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Thanks, Eä. I think we can spare a few days til you can reply. I've still got to prepare some more topics/questions for our next round anyway.