I do not fully agree with you, Witch_King_of_Angmar. Morgoth could not create a complete new species. He could only corrupt those who already were. Yes, he could alter them, he could make those who already were into his minions.

Also, in one of the first posts about Ungoliant.. indeed, she was strongest, even stronger than Morgoth himself. She did not join Morgoth, however, she rather used Morgoth. She almost destroyed Morgoth..

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Once again, I'm simply saying he created the person they became(not their body, he just molded their soul*i.e. corrupted* to his whims, "creating" a new person) I also disagree with you that melkor couldn't create a new species. He could, in theory, but they wouldn't have souls, and would need his supervision

My opinions are such:

You are right in saying that the balrogs are Maiar, and hence Melkor did not bring them into existance, but one could argue that he had a part in forming them. It was him who corrupt them, and 'created' the evil and malice that shaped them.

And although it is not said that Melkor created the dragons, I would hazard a guess that he had a hand in the creation of any evil beasts, whether he created their physical form, or the evil intent which defines them.

Exactly my point, when one is corrupting another, you are simply molding their mind, "creating" a new being

But if I happen to turn evil, I will still be myself, just with other viwes of the world.... Not that its likely to happen in the near future...

Yes, but if you had absolutely no way of turning to evil without a certain person building it up with lies and deceit, then couldnt you say that the evil in you was created by said person?

Yes, once again, if you turn evil, you change, you are not the exact same person you where before(on the inside), you are a new
"creation" of corruption/greed. All of Melkors servants were like this, and so was the dark lord himself

Yes, and besides that I still didn't meet a person who would resist constant lies without ever doubting. Well, maybe I didn't meet the right persons. If you turn evil, you change in deed. Simply that comes naturally you never even realize.
And about the creatures, between balrogs and dragons I'd choose balrogs as stronger ones.

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^ shucks, just what i was about to say.

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Well I believe that the Dragons are much stronger than the Balrogs. But I may be wrong.

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Yeah, Glaurung vs. Gothmog would end in the victory of Glaurung, I think. The only reason Glaurung got killed was that he was caught by surprise by a blow from beneath. I don't think Gothmog would be able to get in a blow like that, and anywhere else it'd be useless to hit Glaurung, so....Glaurung would win.

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Yes I think I agree

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Hmm I must side with the most of you here, between Dragons and Balrogs. On the one hand, we have Gothmog, a Balrog, who is named the High Captain of Angband. On the other we have Dragons, late comers in the arsenal of Morgoth, and yet for that reason more advanced, powerful, and full of tricks (not to mention the winged Dragons first seen in the War of Wrath, who could fly [duh]). However, they are yet both intelligent beings, both wield fire...Another thing going for Dragons is Tolkiens own fascination with them, proclaiming them an almost staple in fantasy. I cannot come with a conclusion now...

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"Fight Tonight For Metal One And All".
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7521

yes, but a balrog might have a bigger intimidation actor than the typical serpent with wings, I mean, it's only a flame wreathed demi-god.

Well, remember Glaurung's eyes? They were pretty intimidating, and with them held sway over people, much like Morgoth's Spell of Bottomless Dread. And though at first glance Balrogs may be intimidating, I'd say a huge anything would freak me out, including dragons. You gotta see to believe.

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"Fight Tonight For Metal One And All".
http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7521

The Secret Fire/Flame of Iluvatar is the origin of most of the creatures of Middle-earth. The dragons may or may not be more corrupted Maiar-like beings, one clue being Gandalf's discussion in relation to the Rings:

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."

That would tend to indicate that the dragons were lesser beings even than Sauron.

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