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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 1:31 pm 
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^That's what I'd like to think as well. You never can tell with Metamorphmagi.

Going back to what Kit said - But, Harry didn't die. JK Rowling has made it clear through out the books that once you're dead you can not come back. What Dumbledore says at the end of that chapter ["Of course it's happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean it isn't real?" ((or something like that))] makes me believe that this limbo really isn't real. I don't think it was an actual, physical place.

And now I'm totally off from what we began discussing.. :P


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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 1:45 pm 
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So.... what, Harry managed to magically drive Voldemort's soul in front of him to block the killing curse so it can die instead of him?

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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 2:53 pm 
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^^ well in order to destroy a horcrux you would have to damage it beyond magical repair...since nothing can survive the killing curse (with exception on the protective charm lily gave harry) Voldemorts Killing Curse would have destroyed his part of the soul that was in Harry....I mean technically he destroyed the home for the Horcrux to live therefore Voldemort destroyed the Horcrux. Does that make sense...it didn't kill harry because Harry's soul can't be destroyed and his body was Technically still intact....so his soul is able to return to his body after Voldy's part of soul was destroyed...

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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 4:17 pm 
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Ouch... my head hurts.

I think the place was kind of like when people who have a near-death experience talk of Christ speaking to them or a dark tunnel with a bright light at the end. No one can really say whether it was real or not, but it still happened.

But I have no idea why Harry survives, but JKR has made it pretty clear that it had something to do with how he faced it willingly. :confused:

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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 5:22 pm 
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Eru, put it quite nicely I think. :) Lily's love protection that flows through both Harry and Voldy's blood has something to do with it also. Dumbledore said in the King's Cross chapter that that blood connection is what tied Harry to life. As long as Voldy remained alive, Harry could not be killed. Lily's love was essentially protecting him once again.

I also found it interesting that Harry did the exact same thing for those who were still alive back at Hogwarts. He laid down his life willingly just like Lily did which cast the same sort of protection on his friends, classmates, etc. That's why Voldemort couldn't keep hold over them all.


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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 9:28 pm 
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Thank you for the explanation, but I was... joking. :p

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PostPosted: August 24th, 2007, 11:45 pm 
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Lol. :teehee: Thanks Kit. At least I've gotten it all straight in my own head now...


Sooo, I finished DH for the second time today and I thought I'd share a few of the things I missed and questions I still have. It's in no particular order really. :)

- As I said before, there was some foreshadowing of the Lupins' deaths that I didn't catch before. In chapter 1, Voldy tells Bellatrix that she must "cut away those parts that threaten the health of the rest [of the family]." Coincidently, Bellatrix ends up killing Tonks later.
- Hedwig's death really hit hard this time. She's always been there for Harry and now she's gone. The last part of Harry's childhood is gone.
- Okay, I love Remus Lupin. I really, really do. Sometimes, however, I just can't help getting annoyed at his paranoia. I mean, he's paranoid with good reason, but... gah!
- What ever happend to Florean Fortescue, the ice cream bloke? Did he board up and disappear like other shop owners or what?
- WOOt! Props to Hermione for getting a book on Horcruxes, and bewitching her parents. Actually, that made me very sad to see her crying like that. It must have been really hard to know that her parents believed that they didn't have a daughter.
- Whoa. I didn't realise that remorse could fix a split soul...
- GIVE IT UP FOR MOLLY WEASLEY!! Sometimes she really annoys me in that motherly way, and sometimes I just want to tackle hug her. Wow.
- A razor? Doesn't that seem a bit personal for a b-day gift. So, is Harry thinking of growing a goatee or something?
- Ugh, Ron! You know you wanted to catch Ginny and Harry at something. Gosh, I was so happy when he finally matured.
- Poor, poor Freddie! :( There's some awful bit of foreshadowing on his death as well when he talks about what his own wedding will be like.
- Great Auntie Muriel = freakin' awesome! I love little old ladies with good humours.
- Do wizards have an all purpose minister/reverand/etc. who presides over everything? Or is JKR just into recycling characters... Lol. I'm referring to the guy presiding over the wedding.
- It was really intriguing to see how many different Patronuses there are. We saw at least 10 different ones through out the book.
- Was anyone else annoyed by the back story on Dumbledore? It was interesting and did serve a purpose in the end, but after hearing several different accounts in only a few chapters it gets a bit tiring.
- I <3 the all-purpose bag. Hermione is an absolute genius when she came up with that.
- To me it felt really weird to see the trio out in the Muggle world. We've been in the wizarding world so long with them that it's strange when they finally step out of it for a long period of time.
- OMG. I've just had a break-through! The scareh dusty thing in Grimmauld Place is shaped like Dumbledore! I thought it was just a generic corpse shape.
- Here's an interesting connection: Harry believes that Dumbledore is using him as a tool to be honed and polished, whilst Snape later accuses Dumbledore of raising Harry like a pig for the slaughter.
- Lol. Lupin really has fun doing those long speech things about himself. I mean, he does it like 3 times, right? :P
- Routing out Muggle-borns and letting Wizards rise above them: WWII anyone?
- How exactly does the Fidelius Charm work on Grimmauld Place? I'm assuming the trio can see number 12's door, but the DE's outside can not? :confused2:
- Aww.. what a wonderful tribute to Mad-Eye. I love how the old, resilient tree where his eye is buried is a nod toward his personality. *warm fuzzies*
- Did anyone else notice the constant ties back to past books? Some of the ones that stuck out to me the most were Krum at the wedding [since we haven't seen him since book 4] and the nod at Oliver Wood. It was also great to remember through Harry the many memories that were brought to mind during his adventures.
- *huggles Hermione* I love how the trio is starving in the wilderness and all Hermione can worry about is whether stealing food and leaving money in its place is okay. :eyeroll:
- Is it a coincidence that the first Snitch was made at Godric's Hollow and that's where Harry, who turned out to be a very good Seeker, was born? Or am I analysing this too much?
- When Bathilda calls "Come!" from the sitting room, why doesn't Hermione realise she's speaking Parseltongue?
- Eew. The snake inside Bathilda thing still grosses me out a lot. I mean, how did Voldy do it? If she were already dead all he'd have to do is slit her throat and enlarge it so that Nagini can fit inside... *shakes head to clear bad mental image*
- *sigh* I love Hermione, but sometimes she's just too logical and narrow-minded. Harry was spot on [spot on!!] with the Hallows theory, yet she didn't want to believe him.
- Lol.Lol.Lol.Lol. Potterwatch = <3
- How can Dobby apparate from Hogwarts to the Malfoy's cellar and out again? Is this Elf magic?
- Why was Filch allowed to stay at Hogwarts if he was a Squib? Wouldn't Voldemort consider Squibs to be as bad as Muggle-borns?
- Gosh. I bawled when Harry dug Dobby's grave. Aboslutely broke down and cried.
- *hugs Fleur* To think I didn't like her for the longest time... I should've known there was more behind the blonde hair and "floaty" demeanor.
- More bloody foreshadowing of the Lupins' deaths: Remus names Harry godfather of Teddy. That should have been a red flag to me the first time 'round.
- Mmkay... I do not understand this line at all - [Aberforth is telling the trio about Ariana] "They [the muggles] forced their way through the hedge, and when she couldn't show them the trick, they got a bit carried away trying to stop the little freak doing it." Obviously they did something to her, but what does he mean by "trying to stop the little freak doing it"? Is he referring to Ariana? That doesn't seem right, as I don't think Aberforth would call his sister that... unless that's what the Muggle boys called her.
- *tackles Neville* I lurve him! Dumbledore's Army, still recruiting! WOOt!
- Squee! McGonagall is brilliance, absolute brilliance! I love how she takes charge. She's the essence of control. :yes:
- Dean/Luna anyone? "Come on, Luna," Dean called as he passed, holding out his free hand; she took it and followed him back up the stairs."
- Percy came back! Percy came back! It gets me every time...
- *furrows brow* Ron being able to speak Parseltongue still bothers me. To me, Parseltongue is a gift you're born with, not something you can learn. Then again, Dumbledore understood it, although I dunno if he could actually speak it.
- I feel so bloody awful for Snape. I really, really do. He was such a proud idiot for joining the DE's thinking that Lily would like him for it, yet it cost him dearly in the end. I hope he's having a good time up in heaven - http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3711 ... ichqn4.jpg [courtesy of Makani]
- *cries* I dearly hope Snape had Lily's love in the form of that letter and her picture when he died. That'd be such a comfort to me if I were him.
- Severus Snape never ceases to amaze me. Even after all his time with the DE's and his dabbling in the Dark Arts in his school years he still does not like to hear the name Mudblood. The very word that seperated him from Lily.
- Let me get this straight; Harry can not die as long as Lily's love protection flows through both his and Voldy's veins. As long as Voldy is tied to life, so Harry will be also. Yes? Just trying to get this straight in me head.
- Why does the Cruciatus Curse not hurt Harry when it is used on him? It can't be Lily's protection or his own that was made when he lay down his life for his friends. Is it for the same reason that he can't feel the Dementors later on?
- Is Bellatrix dead?
- Cool. :cool: Voldy's magic won't work on the DA, Order, or Hogwartians because Harry died for them, just like Lily did for Harry. Take that Voldie-mort! *sticks out tongue*
- Okay, the epilogue wasn't as bad this time. I mean, I didn't think it was too bad the first time, but this time it was even better. I have one question though: Harry mentions that Albus Severus has tea at Hagrids that Friday. Does that mean that Hagrid is still gamekeeper? Wouldn't he be a little old? I mean, he was around when Voldy was a kid for goodness sake!


Later, I shall post some of my favourite book quotes. :-D

EDIT: Teh overall brilliant quotes from the book -

Kingsley: "Harry is the best hope we have. Trust him."

George: "You see... I'm holy. Holey, Fred, geddit?"
Fred: Pathetic, pathetic! With the whole wide world of ear-related humour before you, you go for holey?"

Ron: "I forgot we'll be hunting down Voldemort in a mobile library."

Hermione: "I'm hoping to do some good in this world." [in your face, Scrimgeour!]

Hermione: "... Cinderella."
Ron: "What's that, an illness?"

Harry wondered if they had fallen asleep holding hands. [Aww...]

Kreacher: "Perhaps just one more, Master Harry, for luck?" [Lolz. *huggles Kreacher*]

Ron: "All's fair in love and war and this is a bit of both."

He dug with a kind of fury, relishing the manual work, glorying in the non-magic of it, for every drop of sweat and ever blister felt like a gift to the elf who had saved their lives.

Grief, it seemed, drove Voldemort out . . . though Dumbledore, of course, would have said that it was love . . .

Hermione: "Mudblood and proud of it!" [WOOt for Mudlbood pride!]

He seemed set on a course to become just as reckless a godfather to Teddy Lupin as Sirius Black had been to him.

McGonagall: "We teachers are rather good at magic, you know."

McGonagall: "The time has come for Slytherin House to decide upon it's loyalties."

Running at Ron, she flung them around his neck and kissed him full on the mouth. Ron threw away the fangs and broomstick he was holding and responded with such enthusiasm that he lifted Hermione off her feet. [SQUEE! :teehee:]

"That's right," said Luna encouragingly, as if they were back in the Room of Requirement and this was simply spell practise for the D.A. "That's right, Harry . . . come on, think of something happy . . ."
"Something happy?" he said, his voice cracked.
"We're still here," she whispered, "we're still fighting. Come on, now . . ."
[I <3 Luna...]

Lily: "I only came because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here."
Snape: "I was."
[*dies*]

Dumbledore: "My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?"

Dumbledore: "You know, I sometimes think we sort too soon . . ."
[*sniffle* Snape-y could've been in Gryffindor then. :( ]

Snape: "Would you like me to do it now? Or would you like a few moments to compose and epitaph?"

Dumbledore: "How many men and women have you watched die?"
Snape: "... only those whom I could not save."
[*anguish*]

Dumbledore: "Death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this years league."

Dumbledore: "After all this time?"
Snape: "Always."
[*bawls*]

[The next few quotes had me sobbing. I was quite a sight really with mascara running down my face... :P]

Why had he never appreciated what a miracle he was, brain and nerve and bounding heart?

His heart was leaping against his ribs like a frantic bird. Perhaps it knew it had little time left, perhaps it was determined to fulfill a lifetime's beats before the end.

Harry: "You'll stay with me?"
James: Until the very end.

[Yeah, the sobbing still didn't stop here. Actually, it was more like tears of joy from the King's Cross chapter and onward.]

Dumbledore: "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love."

Dumbledore: "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

Neville: "I'll join you when hell freezes over. Dumbledore's Army!"

Harry: "I've had enough trouble for a lifetime."


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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 7:45 am 
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*applauds* Nice long post... I might answer some of your questions but i wouldn't dare since I'm not half as much a fan as you or anyone else here. :-)
Instead I'm gonna add something I've been wondering, though they're more like general.. things.

Why does both Lupin and Tonks have to die? Why does Rowling do this to young ehh.. Teddy is his name?

Why does Dobby appear at Malfoys' house? (and yes Larael, Elf-magic is different, the house-elfs could apparate whereever they were needed in order to serve their masters.) Why does he need to be involved - and die? Did Rowling write herself up in a corner and could only rely on elf-magic to have the trio etc. escape, or was it purposely because she wanted to make a point of having house-elfs playing a heroic part in the last book?

Thanks for posting quotes: This is beautiful:
Dumbledore: "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love."

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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 11:27 am 
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To answer your first question - I believe it was so she could show a parallel between Harry's life and Teddy's life. The difference will be, however, that Teddy will group up knowing his godfather and having a loving family surrounding him.

Aand, to answer your second question - It all has to do with that blue eye Harry keeps seeing in the mirror. We find out that the blue eye is Aberforth's and that Aberforth knew Dobby fairly well. I think it made a lot more sense for her to send Dobby than any other random house-elf, beacuse of the connection he and Harry share. This was just another moment for Dobby to save Harry's life, as he has always wanted to do on countless occassions.

[Thanks for answering my question on Elf magic, by the way. :)]


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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 12:57 pm 
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Thanks Larael... but why does Dobby have to di..ii...iii..e?? *sobsob* Why Rowling, why? And both Tonks and Lupin, it's just cruel (so is Fred by the way) but I believe you have all cried your eyes out over those deaths numerous times before, so let's not go back there.
It does actually make sense to have Dobby make such a big sacrifice after all he has done for Harry in the past.

But Harry does feel the Cruciatus Curse... right? Rowling just doesn't spend so much time describing it in DH because we are all to familiar with it by now. (eeww I just hate the Cruciatus Curse... so evil. I like how it's the only one of the three Unforgivable spells that Harry never attempts to use... he doesn't do it.. does he...? or did he actually use it once on Bellatrix? Nah.. it was the killing Curse, right?)

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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 4:23 pm 
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*huggles Dobby* He was a very brave Elf. :yes:

Hmm.. I believe Harry tries to use the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix back in OotP after she runs away when Sirius dies, but it doesn't work, because Harry doesn't "mean it". He doesn't want to cause someone pain for his enjoyment. He only does it out of revenge and that's not how the Unforgivable spells work. Even in DH, after Alecto Carrow [or was it Amycus?] spits at McGonagall Harry tries to use the Cruciatus Curse in her defense but it still doesn't work. Again, Harry is acting out hate, so the curse doesn't work as it should.

As for my question, after Harry "wakes up" from his escapade in King's Cross with Dumbledore and is pronounced dead, Voldemort uses the Cruciatus Curse on him. Harry doesn't feel it at all and seems to know ever beforehand that he will not feel any pain from it. I'm looking for explanation on that...


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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 7:14 pm 
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Although killing off Tonks and Lupin would leave Teddy an orphan---I still don't like it, parallel or not, because of all the people who deserved to live, Lupin was possibly the most deserving and Tonks, who was still so young and full of life, couldn't be spared? I don't even SEE the parallel to HARRY, I saw the parallel to NEVILLE.

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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 7:39 pm 
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Really? Now that you mention it, I can see it both ways, but initially I thought it was intended to be a parallel between Harry. The life with a family and godfather he never had. I dunno, it works both ways really.

As for Lupin and Tonks... I have nothing to say on that subject. I saw Lupin's death coming from afar and was whole-heartedly prepared for it. Tonks, admittedly, was shocking, but I wasn't devastated. To say so would be a lie, and an insult to those who were.


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PostPosted: August 26th, 2007, 10:25 pm 
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The death of Lupin and Tonks were definitely the ones that affected me the most, and I will say this now that if everyone else (sans Luna Lovegood) had died and these two + Teddy of course) had lived, I would've been jumping around in joy, because those two + Luna were the only two characters I really cared about in the series, and when I mean care about, I mean PRAY for their survival and happiness. I mean, To his or her own, yes, but.... [depression]

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2007, 7:58 am 
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Larael wrote:
As for my question, after Harry "wakes up" from his escapade in King's Cross with Dumbledore and is pronounced dead, Voldemort uses the Cruciatus Curse on him. Harry doesn't feel it at all and seems to know ever beforehand that he will not feel any pain from it. I'm looking for explanation on that...

Ohh I see what you mean. I had forgotten about that. I don't know why, but I thought it strange that Voldemort would use the Cruciatus Curse on a dead body, why not something more... relevant...

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PostPosted: August 27th, 2007, 11:25 pm 
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Eh, Voldy wouldn't care I don't think. About dead bodies I mean.. he's so used to killing people now that I don't think it would have phased him a bit. Besides he was "in the moment", celebrating his triumph over Harry.

@ Kit: *huggles* I can only imagine what you felt when they died. Or what every Lupin/Tonks fan felt really.. devastated is probably an understatement. :(


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